Disci
Old man
You go and try to do that if you have been spammed with rockets/grens before grab. And D can do the same damn trick too.
Frag Grenade Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Jodediah
- Start date
You go and try to do that if you have been spammed with rockets/grens before grab. And D can do the same damn trick too.
Daphinicus
Private Tester
Remember, this is just one step in a long plan of gameplay additions and modifications. =)
Chi-Ro
Private Tester
If you've been spammed with rockets before a llama grab you're a failure and shouldn't llama. The only way you can really have any effective chance at a good llama is with full health. That's the number 1 rule of llama grabbing.
Yeah...I'm not sure how I feel about the grenades anymore. It overpowers defense too much; I mean, it was hard enough for most to llama grab effectively in PUs before, and now you are giving defense an instant kill? And instead of being treated like grenades, they're used as mines; if that's what was meant, then I'd change the name.
Personal preferences:
1. Make hitbox smaller; on defense, I'm nadejumping half the time instead of getting a minedisc off (getting better though)
2. Make the bounce less.
Once people figure out how to use these, defense is going to be on lockdown, though perhaps people would adapt by going 5o 2d, or going 8v8 as standard, 5o vs 3d. That makes most sense to me.
Personal preferences:
1. Make hitbox smaller; on defense, I'm nadejumping half the time instead of getting a minedisc off (getting better though)
2. Make the bounce less.
Once people figure out how to use these, defense is going to be on lockdown, though perhaps people would adapt by going 5o 2d, or going 8v8 as standard, 5o vs 3d. That makes most sense to me.
Outlawl
Macabre
Why?
I mean, if all the developers want is people to run route after route in PU game without variation and 0 llama/e- grabs, then by all means keep it. Honestly, I think it's a lot more interesting if people have to actually pay attention. The current easiest position in the game (home d) gets made even easier.
imo, given balanced teams, there should be a legitimate possibility of an e-grab post-standoff, so there's a chance of saving the cap. With nades, that doesn't exist.
I can understand hate for llama grabs in pubs. I don't understand it in PUs except that it's carried over. After all, if it's already ez to kill them, why complain about it?
I'm looking at this as a balance thing. I play home d more than lo anyway.
imo, given balanced teams, there should be a legitimate possibility of an e-grab post-standoff, so there's a chance of saving the cap. With nades, that doesn't exist.
I can understand hate for llama grabs in pubs. I don't understand it in PUs except that it's carried over. After all, if it's already ez to kill them, why complain about it?
I'm looking at this as a balance thing. I play home d more than lo anyway.
Application-1
test bester
If D can use it then so can O.
That balances it enough.
That balances it enough.
RockeyRex
Legions Developer
Ken have heatseeking missles?
Chi-Ro
Private Tester
Meh I think it's more an issue of flagstand spam. However on the flip side if you can get the flag off the stand full health you're as good as clear with a solid well played MA RJ. So it balances out in the end. Harder to grab it, slightly easier to get away with it.
Redvan
Private Tester
not at all.
D is at home. They spawn right there, they generally have more D than the enemy has LO. LO will generally have much less energy due to the jet up to the base, whereas D is just waiting with a full bar of energy... need I go on? D has huge advantages already.
I'm noticing more and more people are starting to bind their nade keys, which is, as I suspected, greatly increasing the spam in bases. Add to that how extremely easy it is to combo... IMO Nades were an excessive buff to D. They are fun, but, I think they should be looked at more to prevent the game from becoming spamtardtastic.
Application-1
test bester
Yeah okay i get your point and perhaps we do need some O upgrades. I self play HoF alot in games so thats probably how I came on that conclusion. So what to counter D with then? Because in the end like I said if D can us it then so can O. So you may just be making O stronger with a upgrade but while doing so you will increase D aswell. There is no hiding from it, respawning IS a big advantage that will never go away so instead of making better weapons we should look into making capping easier. But the only qeustion is how?
RockeyRex
Legions Developer
Why should capping be more easy?
I'm quite certain capping will always be as easy it is now, the question is how much effort is needed from the LO distraction when running slower and not so stealthy routes.
This change encourages for more cordination from the offence and I don't see that as a bad thing at all.
I'm quite certain capping will always be as easy it is now, the question is how much effort is needed from the LO distraction when running slower and not so stealthy routes.
This change encourages for more cordination from the offence and I don't see that as a bad thing at all.
Redvan
Private Tester
capping shouldn't be made easier (I dont think that's really possible anyway, unless they add autopilot or something). What I'm saying is perhaps the nades need to be toned down to keep bases from becoming one giant explosion. We may as well have nukes and get it all over with in one shot. It'd be more economical.
Ways nades can be made less spammy:
1. My least favorite idea is reduce the #, however, perhaps keep 5 nades on Sent, 3 on Raider, and 2 on OR. That would reduce the overall number of nades at any given time at a base and introduce the hassle of dropping in on an ammo station sooner if you want more. The reason this is my least favorite is because you'll have reduced nades even when not at a base obviously. But, considering a large majority of the time is spent in either your base or the enemy base where there are ammo stations, it wouldn't be too bad. It would make people be smarter with their nades rather than just popping them out every chance they get in hopes of doing extra splash damage.
Of course, this is really only a problem on small base maps like nivo and moon. So, map design could cure this quite well. However, if you base map design off of one thing, then, you're reducing the pool of designs to pick from when making new maps.
2. Increase fuse time. This would allow for the same amount of nades, thus, more combo fun, while at the same time, make it easier to get away from if they are being spammed. Essentially it would make nades useful primarily for combos. Also, it would allow for longer range combos. This can be combined with the next couple ideas.
3. Decrease splash radius. Do we really need more splash? We have RL and GL which do a ton of splash, what's the use of more? Remember, I was a fan of the reduced splash, so, I was already dissapoint when it was put back to more normal levels. Now add an additional hand nade splash to the equation and it's just getting to be too much imo. Decreasing splash would give obvious good results, but combo splash could be kept the same. Since combos are harder to do than "fire and forget" nade spamming, there would be no problem.
4. Add a period of time before the nade can be hit for a combo. As it is now, it's really really easy to hit a nade right after you've thrown it. That makes for easy close range combos and increases the overall splash at a base.
5. Decrease hitbox for the nade to make close combos harder. Possibility, but, I'd much prefer #4 since decreasing the hitbox would affect longer range combos.
Those are all the ideas I could think of now, perhaps I'll think of more later.
RockeyRex
Legions Developer
Pretty much.
Daphinicus
Private Tester
Dude, you just HATE splash, don't you? =)
It would be tremendously foolish to base map design around one thing, but in general, larger maps are more paced, and would achieve what you're talking about here. I agree that if nades become a problem, reducing the amount makes a lot of sense -- perhaps 5/4/3? I wouldn't want to stick an outrider with just 2, because you want to be able to use them for both offensive tactics and maneuverability.
Nades right now are pretty darned bouncy. That bounciness creates chaos, and may well be related to the spamminess you feel is present, but it also creates difficulty. Increasing the fuse time for nades is an option, but that would just mean nades will have more time to bounce around in random directions, and thus, become even more chaotic.
I think this is the crux of your distaste for nades in their current form. As you admit, you were never a fan of splash.
A couple points need to be made.
Absolutely not. You completely remove their usefulness as mobility tools if you do that, and right now one of the best aspects of grenades is their enhancement to mobility.
#4 is out, and like you said, longer range combos become prohibitively difficult with reduces hitbox size.
Overall, bud, if you're having trouble with splash, practice your energy management so you can stay airborne longer, and back off from your targets. Whenever I get into close combat with someone, I invariably lose; if I remember to keep my distance and time my touchdowns so they happen during my enemies' reload periods, my enemy gets a much greater challenge out of me.
It would be tremendously foolish to base map design around one thing, but in general, larger maps are more paced, and would achieve what you're talking about here. I agree that if nades become a problem, reducing the amount makes a lot of sense -- perhaps 5/4/3? I wouldn't want to stick an outrider with just 2, because you want to be able to use them for both offensive tactics and maneuverability.
Nades right now are pretty darned bouncy. That bounciness creates chaos, and may well be related to the spamminess you feel is present, but it also creates difficulty. Increasing the fuse time for nades is an option, but that would just mean nades will have more time to bounce around in random directions, and thus, become even more chaotic.
I think this is the crux of your distaste for nades in their current form. As you admit, you were never a fan of splash.
A couple points need to be made.
- Grenades are splash damage weapons. It is their defining characteristic. Just sayin'.
- Given their high bounce and timed fuse (that is, they don't go off until that fuse it up or they've been shot), nades are very much air-burst weapons, and given the speeds at which we move through the air, having splash in the air is kinda critical to their usefulness. Otherwise they'd only be useful on direct hits, and if you're going to direct hit a player, you might as well do it with any of the other weapons. Nades are support tools; they're there to keep the enemy thinking or to drive your foes in certain directions, setting them up for MAs. If nades didn't have enough splash to make them worrisome, enemies wouldn't bother trying to dodge them as much as they do.
Absolutely not. You completely remove their usefulness as mobility tools if you do that, and right now one of the best aspects of grenades is their enhancement to mobility.
#4 is out, and like you said, longer range combos become prohibitively difficult with reduces hitbox size.
Overall, bud, if you're having trouble with splash, practice your energy management so you can stay airborne longer, and back off from your targets. Whenever I get into close combat with someone, I invariably lose; if I remember to keep my distance and time my touchdowns so they happen during my enemies' reload periods, my enemy gets a much greater challenge out of me.