Cores

[Volt Cruelerz]

It would be more detrimental to chasers methinks than cappers.

 

[ZanteWarrior]

well good HoF's tend to throw out a mortar when cappers are leaving the base anyway to maybe get the in the explosion.... slowing them down would make it easier for them to hit.

but what if it was a grenade instead of a core

 

[Volt Cruelerz]

EMP grenades so long as they don't kill your energy entirely (as per Total Meltdown EMP's) aren't bad. I just don't think it's a good thing for a core.

 

[mausgang]

I think somebody brought up something a little similar to this, but for the HoF, how about a shockwave core? It wouldn't be a full self-destruct core, but it would create a large radius, high kickback/low damage blast at the cost of health. The idea is that it wouldn't kill players unless they were already nearly dead, could slow down/redirect fast cappers and deflect slower cappers. I don't think it should have an effect on weapons, and the health drainage amount should be determined by testing, but I'd think it should be high enough that Sents can use it four or five times without needing to heal, and, of course, giving Raiders and Outriders fewer usages so that it gives offense some chance to clear a flagstand but they'd be much easier to kill afterwards. I'm not entirely sure how that'd work.

The other possibility would be to restrict classes that could carry the core, but that doesn't seem fair to me. Another idea I had was to make Sents that carry the shockwave core be susceptible to regen cores, so a stay-D player with a regen core could help heal a sent with the shockwave core.

 

[Volt Cruelerz]

Unless you go like OD and iOD where Sents just have a different version than OR's and Raiders.

 

[Libra]

It would be great to see each class having it's own variation of each core

 

[ZanteWarrior]

EMP grenades so long as they don't kill your energy entirely (as per Total Meltdown EMP's) aren't bad. I just don't think it's a good thing for a core.

Yea, or a grenade the nulls the effects of cores, so if you get hit you cant use any cores for a few seconds. Since alot of capper use either OD or warp on there routes if used right it can help stop cappers.

 

[Volt Cruelerz]

It would be great to see each class having it's own variation of each core

Not for this. I'm for heavies having their own in some cases, but not all.

Yea, or a grenade the nulls the effects of cores, so if you get hit you cant use any cores for a few seconds. Since alot of capper use either OD or warp on there routes if used right it can help stop cappers.

I still am hesitant to do add anything that disables cores..

 

[mausgang]

Not for this. I'm for heavies having their own in some cases, but not all.


I still am hesitant to do add anything that disables cores..

I think that would be good to have a separate 'Shockwave' core for Sents vs. OR and Raiders. I would think that, should either a Raider or an Outrider get a chance to use the shockwave core, at full health, it would bring them down to a very low health, without killing them outright. We could probably have the lighter class Shockwave core determine how large a blast radius and kickback is based on how much health is left. (Like the LR, which uses up all the energy you have, with a baseline damage, and how much gets added onto that damage is dependent on how much energy you have left) so you are converting your hitpoints into the blast. This may need some tweaking between the Raider and OR classes, but I figured this method would keep less skilled players from clearing an enemy flagstand over and over again.

 

[SeymourGore]

*Note: Seymour's suggestions here are not a sign of where development is heading. Seymour's just a man of pleasure and merriment, these suggestions are his own personal thoughts on the subject at hand.*

My concern with the inclusion of a whole bunch of different Core types is 'pigeonholing' the player into only selecting a small amount of effective Cores and not experiencing some of the other 'niche' Core effects. Personally, I think it'd make for a more interesting game if the Core number was kept relatively low (with the Core's usefulness being fairly universal), and further variance was dictated by an Item system. Items would give smaller passive or active tweaks to a players abilities to make them more effective in their role or to better suit the avatar to the player's play style.

So, for Cores: Energy/Overdrive, Regen, Shield, Flux/Warp.

At your loadout screen, there would then be a slew of items available to choose from and you would then select what further variances you want. The item slots would be limited (determined by armour type) and may have armour restrictions or require a specific Core to be used.

Armour Item limits (guesstimates)
Outrider: 2 weapons, 2 items
Raider: 3 weapons, 3 items
Sentinel: 3 weapons, 4 items

ie:
Healthbot 5000: Gives players the current passive regeneration ability, same current restrictions/conditions apply to use.
Ammo Belt: Increases ammunition count.
Overdrive Blast: Similar to current Overdrive explosion, perhaps with a bit more range, requires Energy/Overdrive Core.
Agility Enhancements: Allows double-tap directional dodging and double jump at low velocities.
Engineer Tool: Allows repairing, upgrading of base assets.
Shockwave Enhancement: Similar to ideas that I've seen in this thread. While in overdrive, a player can 'smash' into the terrain creating a AoE knockback. Requires Energy/Overdrive Core. Some restriction ideas: cooldown, player is immobile for a short duration at impact crater, etc.
The Grinder: Deployable turret, lowers walking speed of player carrying it until deployed, usable only be medium/heavy.
Laser Upgrade: Upgrades the players laser rifle to be similar to the old IA-style of laser rifle, with perhaps a nerf or two to better balance it from that iteration. Requires laser rifle.
AP Rockets (Armour Piercing): Increases the damage of Rockets, but lowers the AoE. Requires rocket launcher.
Chaingun MK II: Decreases the spread of the chaingun at high speeds (basically making it just as effective as the current chaingun in chasing). Requires chaingun.
Cluster Grenades: Gives the grenade launcher projectiles the 'Cluster' attribute. Requires Grenade Launcher.

Example setups
Loadout name: EngineerSeymour
Armour: Raider
Core: Shield
Weapons: R. Launcher, Plasma, G. Launcher
Items: Engineer Tool, The Grinder, Healthbot 5000
Reasoning behind loadout: This would be my basic 'engineering' loadout. I chose a Raider because I wanted a bit more speed than what a Sentinel would provide (so I can rush to repair a downed base turret), but it also offers more protection than Outrider as I'd be expecting to absorb some hits from LO as I'm repairing. I chose the Shield Core instead of the Regen core, as I wanted a bit more of a 'proactive' protection and am relying on the Healthbot 5000 to regenerate my health during downtimes (or a quick respawn if I have time to do it).

Loadout name: SeymourHOF
Armour: Sentinal
Core: Energy/Overdrive
Weapons: Mortar, Burninator, Chaingun
Items: Ammo Belt, Shockwave Enhancement, Healthbot 5000, Agility Enhancements
Reasoning behind loadout: This would be my basic 'HoF' loadout. I combined the high HP of a Sentinel with agility increasing Cores and Items so that I can quickly respond to incoming attackers and allows me to more effectively control the flag during standoffs. The ammo belt allows me to 'hold my position' by lowering the amount of times I need to visit an ammo station/respawn; The Shockwave Enhancement helps me where multiple cappers come in at once (though I can't spam this ability due to its restrictions/penalties); Healthbot5000 keeps me a bit healthier between attacks; and the Agility Enhancements are really a boon for my movement as my travel speed won't restrict this Items abilities.

So, yeah, I've detailed a similar system in one of the old forums and I still like it. While it may seem too complicated at first, I believe including 'predefined' named loadouts (ala current Live Legions) for new players (or experienced players who don't care for the added variances Items bring in) alongside the custom loadout screen would help alleviate this issue.

 

[Libra]

Love the idea it consolidates all the good ones in this post. i'm going to go a bit off topic i was playing defenders mod mixed with the new mod, there is this new falcon class it's armor is lighter making it faster and more agile than the outrider i would love to see that class go live

 

[Volt Cruelerz]

If you go much lighter than OR, you start getting to the point where their speed is absurd. Two days ago, I mitzi capped as a falcon on bladerun in 15 seconds on a side route with a warp core. That ought to demonstrate how OP those two things are...

Back on topic... Idk Seymour... In general, I don't think I'd mind the idea of items, but overall, I'd expect that most of them wouldn't be used which kind of defeats the point...

Your comment about the flux/warp core gave me an idea though. What if the heavy version of the warp core somehow allowed you to swap places/momentum with another player? Idk how it would work necessarily, but I think that it could be cool.

 

[SeymourGore]

Back on topic... Idk Seymour... In general, I don't think I'd mind the idea of items, but overall, I'd expect that most of them wouldn't be used which kind of defeats the point...

That's kinda the idea I was trying to make. If a bunch of Core types are introduced, there would be an increased chance that certain Cores would become more 'gimmicks' or specific Cores would be needed for the player to be proficient in his role. By relegating lesser variances to Items, players would be able to experience/assign these smaller traits to themselves. It also allows 'passive' effects to be introduced that would otherwise be boring compared to other Core types if it was a Core.

Also, don't take that small list I wrote to be 'all' of the possible Items, it's just a small list that was quickly whipped up for examples. Which is another bonus to the Item system, it would be easier to introduce new Items into the game (at least gameplay wise) then introducing another powerful Core ability at later dates.

And, really, now when I think about it, I don't understand why someone would prefer to respawn without Items than with. At the very least they'd want the passive regeneration, and, for the most part, the Items improve your ability/loadouts. So, I'm having a hard time understanding why you'd think they wouldn't be used.

 

[Volt Cruelerz]

I'm saying that certain items wouldn't be used except for niche situations. Sure, cores would be universal, but items become niche.

 

[SeymourGore]

I'm saying that certain items wouldn't be used except for niche situations. Sure, cores would be universal, but items become niche.

Now you're getting the idea! By placing the more 'niche' abilities to the Item stack, you're not forcing players to shoot themselves in the foot if they want a certain trait but don't want to lose the powerful ability of a specific Core. The idea is to not have every Item useful for every player, but for the Items to complement the individual player's playstyle or to further specialize themselves for a specific position. What I'd hope to see is a group of players being able to customize and differentiate themselves from each other.

Here's another example:
Loadout: SeymourLO
Armour: Raider
Weapons: R. Launcher, Plasma, G. Launcher
Core: Regen
Items: Ammo Belt, Agility Enhancements, AP Rockets
Reasoning: This is a basic LO loadout able to withstand some punishment with the Raider armour and has agility to duel the defence/dance around assets. For a Core type, I chose Regen as I'm expecting to be more 'reactive' to the enemy fire. Chose an ammo belt so that I have some extra ammunition to bombard the flagstand/harass the HoF; Chose Agility Enhancements because my speed will be low enough to properly use the asset, help duel in tight situations; and AP Rockets as I intend to be fighting against a slow, moving but tough HoF (hoping to rely on nicely aimed shots versus AoE rocket spam against him).

 

[Volt Cruelerz]

... Not sure how that solves anything... You still end up with people "shooting themselves in the foot" over not having certain items/perks.

I'm not saying that I'm against further customization, I just don't think you're providing much of a reason to do so. I guess you could say that any significant active ability will need to be a core, but at the same time, you could justify the dodging as being a core because you'll gain a significant advantage over others in certain ways. Now, I can get why you wouldn't want that, but honestly, I don't see a problem with a "boost" core.

 

[SeymourGore]

Alright, going to try to make this more simpler to understand.

Core only system:
You're using a Overdrive Core, but sure wish you could use the more niche abilities of the 'Dodge Core' (namely low velocity, double tap dodging). You could just equip a Dodge Core, but wait, the Overdrive is basically mandatory for the position I was playing. It's a shame that I can't combine my powerful Core ability with these niche abilities, and I'm basically stuck in the role that my Core was designed for.

Example Loadouts
Overdrive, Flux/Warp, Ammo, Dodge, Boost, Shield, Regen, Engineer + weapon/armour/handnade choice

Core and Item system:
You need the Overdrive ability to help assist cappers or to maneuver yourself easier for a flag pass. You also equip yourself with the Agility Enhancement to help you with fighting, maneuvering around the enemy base, if the need arises.

Example Loadouts:
Overdrive, Flux/Warp, Boost, Shield, Regen + weapon/armour/handnade/item choice

I'm not saying that I'm against further customization, I just don't think you're providing much of a reason to do so. I guess you could say that any significant active ability will need to be a core, but at the same time, you could justify the dodging as being a core because you'll gain a significant advantage over others in certain ways. Now, I can get why you wouldn't want that, but honestly, I don't see a problem with a "boost" core.

The main advantage is that you're able to further customize your character and create more interesting combinations. Sure, some Items would be more useful for one player over another, but the same could be said for weapon and armour selection. The end result is that you're able to mix and match useful abilities instead of only choosing 'one' main ability.

Perhaps, if it's easier for you to understand, you could separate Cores into 'primary' and 'secondary'. The player would choose one 'primary' Core (containing a single, powerful active ability), but also able to choose a limited number of 'secondary' Cores (with useful passive or active abilities) to complement/customize his player.

Update: The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a primary and secondary Core scheme. It'd probably be easier to understand for more people (even if it's mostly a renaming of Item to 'Secondary Core'). And the reason for even having such a scheme instead of just a 'multiple Core' scheme is to avoid particularly powerful Core combinations. The secondary Cores would be more 'niche', be either active or passive (mind you, if it's a active Core, I'd prefer it was activated by something other than the 'Overdrive' key to avoid confusion).

Anyhow, here's a quick list:
Primary Cores
Energy/Overdrive, Shield, Regen, Stealth, Flux/Warp, Boost
Secondary Cores
Mend (passive regeneration), Dodge, Shockwave, Battery (increased energy regen)

Then again, looking at this list, I'm starting to like the 'Item' system (er, naming) more. The reason being is that then it makes sense for certain Items (like weapon enhancements) to be included as an Item instead of a Secondary Core.

I guess there could be a Core, Secondary Core, and Item system, but that seems needlessly complicated and unnecessary.

Also: "I need to equip my Laser Upgrade Core!" sounds kinda silly.

 

[Volt Cruelerz]

Oh nvm... I still don't get your niche basis, but oh well...

At any rate, I would be fine with such as system.

 

[mausgang]

A lot of things, read it above.

I like the idea of having the Primary and Secondary cores or items, whatever they will be called. Either way, I feel that, with the feel of the game as it is now, to have predominantly Active ability cores. Perhaps, each player gets the appropriate number of weapon slots/handnade/primary core/secondary core/item(s)

Outriders could have 1 item, raiders 2, Sentinels either 2 or 3. The items would be a passive thing, such as a boost to Energy Regen, passive health regen (should that ever get taken away from being a default) and weapons buffs, perhaps even items that allow you to receive reduced damage from certain weapons (ex: a capper keeps getting sniped while he's front-routing on Fallout. He equips an item that nerfs LR damage to his person.)

Just a thought.

 

[Volt Cruelerz]

Honestly, I think a weight-based system would be the way to go. You can carry more weapons or items if you like. Heck, if you want to scrap a core altogether, you can (though make the max core count 1 of course). And yes, IMO, the weight you have equipped should influence your final mass so you should be able to strip down to an OR ultra-light if you like for sheer speed. Just some basic stuff below...

Currently, the masses are:

• OR: 75
• RD: 95
• SN: 180

I'd like to propose that things be broken up into different mass-elements. Armor class would itself have a mass and would have a weight limit.

• Human: 20 (I know humans weigh more than this in real life) [Health: 50]
• OR Frame: 10 [Limit: 95] [Health: 25]
• RD Frame: 30 [Limit: 115] [Health: 45]
• SN Frame: 95 [Limit: 220] [Health: 130]
• Core: 15
• Grenade Pack: 5
• Mortar/Other heavy weapon: 20
• Other Weapons: 10
• Items: 5-10 (depending on the object)
• Deployables: 10-30

So, for a standard OR as it is now...

• Human (20)
• OR Frame (10)
• Core (15) [OD/Warp/Regen]
• Grenade Pack (5) [boost/frag]
• 2x Non-Mortar Weapons (10x2)
• Item (5) [Passive Regen]

Standard Raider...

• Human (20)
• RD Frame (20)
• Core (15)
• Grenade Pack (5)
• 3x Non-Mortar Weapons (10x3)
• Item (5)

Standard Sentinel

• Human (20)
• SN Frame (95)
• Core (15)
• Grenade Pack (5)
• 2x Non-Mortar Weapons (10x2)
• Mortar (20)
• Item (5)

If you wanted to strip down, you could do that. If you wanted to bulk up you should be able to do that as well. I'm hesitant to allow people to increase energy pools or recharge rates, but I have no issue with items that increase your health a corresponding amount. Let's say that for every 5 health you add to your player, it adds a mass of 2.5n+2.5 where n is how many times you've upgraded health.
Anyways, Cores+items sounds like a good system to me and you may as well go all out with the weight system and just let people do whatever the heck they want with their loadout. Cores would have a weight of 15 while "secondary-cores" such as the ability to dodge/boost would be lesser active abilities with weights of 10 or so. Other things like the current health regen would be five. That should help keep things balanced between primary cores, weapons, secondary cores, and all other items. You could theoretically go without any of them, though that is not necessarily a good idea.
Eh.. Just some general musings...