As an Old Tribes Player, I'd LOVE to see....

Why not make the Tether a Glowing Energy beam?
You could explain that it's completely incorporeal, and therefore doesn't matter if it passes through anyone.

Or just go with a fixed turret, either way.
 

Serket

Member
I like Nighthhawk's idea, the energy cord could just be attached to a circular structure in the ground, you press a key to interact with it and the beam attaches to you, and just press the interact key again to detach it from you. About the discussion taking place in this thread about turrets, vehicles, deployables and whatnot I don't really mind what gets or doesn't get implemented, for the simple reason that I trust the devs being players and legions fans themselves will take the right decisions to make the game more of an awesome game to play than it already is, and that they will listen to their community's suggestions and try them, and also because I know that I will have to adapt to the changes done to the game but I know I can.
If anything, I'd just like to make one request to all of these new stuff you guys are suggesting, and it's that you can get resupplied at ANY station no matter where it's placed in the map, be it inside your own base or the enemy's, simply because I used to use the supply crates at enemy bases a lot to get ammoed up again before returning to base, keep the enemy defenders busy or to aid incoming allied capppers get to base safely.
 

SeymourGore

Flatulent Cherub
Why not make the Tether a Glowing Energy beam?
You could explain that it's completely incorporeal, and therefore doesn't matter if it passes through anyone.

Or just go with a fixed turret, either way.

That would work, instead of a physical tether, it could be some sort of energy beam (ala Serket's description). This way too, when a player drops the turret, only the beam has to disappear, and the turret attachment itself would just fall to the ground ready to be used by the next player.
 

discord

Private Tester
It would be interesting to see how that works out, maybe make the 'cord' severable by splash rocket damage, or direct hits by any weapon along the length. Of course there is also the opportunity to absolutely clothesline incoming cappers, with the glowy cable of doom being stretched in front of their route, if you allow it to be an impactable object in the game.

I don't know how much more 'oomph' you can afford to give a player controlled weapon by limiting their motions to a set radius, but new content is new content.
 

Serket

Member
That would work, instead of a physical tether, it could be some sort of energy beam (ala Serket's description). This way too, when a player drops the turret, only the beam has to disappear, and the turret attachment itself would just fall to the ground ready to be used by the next player.

Maybe something else that could be done is that the energy beam retracts itself to its origin so it's not just lying around glowing for no reason. I don't know maybe this could be easier for the devs, isntead of having to implement physics for it while on the ground, that's why I make this suggestion.
 

SeymourGore

Flatulent Cherub
Maybe something else that could be done is that the energy beam retracts itself to its origin so it's not just lying around glowing for no reason. I don't know maybe this could be easier for the devs, isntead of having to implement physics for it while on the ground, that's why I make this suggestion.

Yar, so the turret would then be returned to its original location, instead of at a (possibly) awkward place to retrieve the attachment.
 
Long rant so here is a short version:...... I hate the idea of turrrets, mines, and vehicles. Go dl then play the free multiplayer demo of T:V at http://tribesvengeance.filefront.com/file/Multiplayer_Demo;33284 .

Now for the long version.....are you ready to take it in??....... if so then.....thats what she said?

I like being able to drive cars fast and fly around in vehicles while shooting people down, but I don't like when a vehicle or turret gives someone an upper hand over someone else. To many times in T:V I would see people just bomb a base with a bomber over and over for 20+ kills , the noobs would just base rape , or people would set down 6 turrets and 6 mines around a flag and just sit back while people died. It was very frowned apon to even touch souch a thing by the upper skilled players, and if history repeats, it will still be only tactics low tier players will use. It is in my eyes, the same has someone that goes and rabbits the flag while in a game. Only noobs do it and when it is done, it is frowned apon by the upper tier players. Anybody who has seen me rabbit while killing off the entire team that is trying hunt me down with the old charged sniper would know, and yes I called myself a noob =P.


I remember this strategy I made called the meat grinder/2:5. We even used it vs Vv or void (I can't remember) in a scrim. The normal strat would be 3:4 or 4:3 on offense and defense, mine was 2 defense rest offense. Me and Floks would hold the base, and our job was to kill anything that would dare get in range of a bullet. A teammate would toss the flag to the top of the base near the flag stand and would go off back to harass the enemy base. Then me and Floks would pass the flag between the two of us while killing people who tryed to returnt the flag and worrying about dying. We had to hold the flag against 3+ people( at one point they sent over 5) while killing and passing, sometimes solo for 5 seconds when Floks or me died, and trust me 5 seconds is a long time in a duel. I am not saying I am an amazing player, but that strategy took major skill to pull off, and not just anybody can do it. I do not want to see a couple of people who played the game for 10 days pull off that strategy.
*I am making a point, I am in no way putting down Vv or void, btw we lost.....*


I don't like the idea of someone placing mines down on flag... there is no strategy to that, a hof however took some skill. When you choose a hof you give a price to play that class or any other class well enough to be worthy of competing; that price is skill. Some people make back what they put forward, all the hours of practice and playing turned them into a work of art that we all knew and loved has the legion legends. What do you give to place down a turret or mine?? If something can kill for you, why is there no price to pay for it? We did not all start out being able to duel with 5 people at once. I have spent countless hours teaching others how to play and even just being a meat target practice dummy. If there are turrets, mines, and vehicles making lower tier players play like upper tier players then I feel the time I spent and the time of the people I spent it with means less.


When 2 very good players went at it, time seemed to slow down. There was a dance that each person would do while trying to be aggressive and not take hits at the same time. You had to think quickly on how this person plays, what guns he uses, and how do I make him stop breathing, or undressing me with his eyes. *APC...*. There is none of this when it comes to setting down a mine, turret, or a vehicle that will make you faster, give you stronger guns, and bassicly a new set of armor that will absorb bullets while you just hop out laughing at the 3 people it took to kill it in the first place.


Even in games like bfbc2 I hated the vehicles, so maybe it is just the way I think. The idea could work I guess... no matter what happens I will try and adapt, but doesnt mean I will like it. If people are having problems because they cant handle the higher tier players, then add a rank system of some kind. In Genesis Ad the noobs are put in a beginning server that the better players can't play in. If your rank is high, but your k/d is below 30% which by all means makes you suck it lets you play with the other noobs... I mean... the people who wont shoot you for sucking so badly.... I mean..... ohhh never mind.....


That's not a troll, it's the king of all goblins and fairies (go play some good old games). Also, if I see bullshit, I tend to call people on it. As long as you know what you're talking about, and as long as you don't try to disguise your opinion as facts, everything is fine. I'll take that cookie anyways, thanks.

gheist...... every post I see of yours you are putting someone down...... You don't have to agree with someone, but no need to troll. Speaking of bs... idc if your the pope.... ok especially don't care if your the pope.... but if I see bs I am going to call you on it... you posted again... I want my cookie back...:D

Do I get cookie for longest rant?
 

discord

Private Tester
Long rant so here is a short version:......

The problem here is that you aren't considering the good points of these things. I'm not a HUGE fan of vehicles, but I will be the first to admit that sometimes they have a very real, and good place in a FPS Z game. They require much more attention to balancing than most things seem to, since they can be a huge game-changer, but things are okay as long as the option is available to both teams and maps are balanced around their existence.

T:V is considered by many of us to be a horrible blemish on that, the Starsiege: Tribes, game series. I wasn't too thrilled with the vehicles in T2, but I learned to deal with the changes and actually came to enjoy their use in games. This is coming from someone who was friends with the top ten comp guys etc, though my computer at the moment wasn't up to snuff for running it in a competitive scenario. V vs +GoD+, I was on the edge of my seat listening to it. You have to understand that deployables and vehicles can actually bring GOOD changes into a game when done well. They would have to go through a rigorous testing phase, to ensure balance, but they have been a part of these type of games since the start and shouldn't be ruled out without giving mature discussion and reasons that show beyond a doubt that the ideas will not work.

As for 'scrubs' using the vehicles, I would like to direct you to the |5150| guy's shrike chase videos. I believe there was a guy that started with a J (joot? jun? something monosyllabic) from V that was nutso with a shrike as well, but my memory is spotty as I was REALLY high back in those days. If you can legitimately find people of that caliber to be scrubs, then I salute you for being a true god among video games, and I will retire from the internet forever. Your experiences in one game being translated to another can color your views initially, but you must have an open mind to cope with a work in progress. Things are wide open right now, and just because a personal opinion has been formed does not mean that you can pour h8orade all over things. Instead, take the h8orade and pour it on the coach if you win the game. Otherwise, just drink it and remember that unsportsmanlike conduct penalties get you laughed at by the other players and might get you benched.

Take the time to step back from your experiences and look at the possibilities that are opened up by these things. There have been MANY instances where they have proved to be a fun addition, though there are also the times where they can cause you to rage so hard that your veins pop. If you can provide good ideas, levelheaded feedback, and well-tested balancing issues there will be MUCH more credence to your opinions than a rant will ever bring. Right now, none of that is possible until these things are released, and that is no guarantee, so let's just let people throw their ideas around. Someone out there has a GREAT idea right now that could change the face of the game, but hasn't put it out for perusal yet. Of course, if they get ranted at when they post it, they will be less likely to continue expounding on their idea. Let's just let people have fun with ideas right now, and accept that some of this has potential to be great stuff. It will all be sorted out in time!
 

Strife

Moderator
I like being able to drive cars fast and fly around in vehicles while shooting people down, but I don't like when a vehicle or turret gives someone an upper hand over someone else. To many times in T:V I would see people just bomb a base with a bomber over and over for 20+ kills , the noobs would just base rape , or people would set down 6 turrets and 6 mines around a flag and just sit back while people died. It was very frowned apon to even touch souch a thing by the upper skilled players, and if history repeats, it will still be only tactics low tier players will use. It is in my eyes, the same has someone that goes and rabbits the flag while in a game. Only noobs do it and when it is done, it is frowned apon by the upper tier players. Anybody who has seen me rabbit while killing off the entire team that is trying hunt me down with the old charged sniper would know, and yes I called myself a noob =P.

There will always be disparity in tactics used by skilled and less skilled players, but using a different game to judge the ideas being developed for this game isn't a fair assessment. Rabbiting is frowned upon because griefers use it as a tool to do their job in pub games and is just an annoying strat in general, also why it's not allowed in competition. It's really not that hard for any skilled players to stop, especially with fall damage, though.


I remember this strategy I made called the meat grinder/2:5. We even used it vs Vv or void (I can't remember) in a scrim. The normal strat would be 3:4 or 4:3 on offense and defense, mine was 2 defense rest offense. Me and Floks would hold the base, and our job was to kill anything that would dare get in range of a bullet. A teammate would toss the flag to the top of the base near the flag stand and would go off back to harass the enemy base. Then me and Floks would pass the flag between the two of us while killing people who tryed to returnt the flag and worrying about dying. We had to hold the flag against 3+ people( at one point they sent over 5) while killing and passing, sometimes solo for 5 seconds when Floks or me died, and trust me 5 seconds is a long time in a duel. I am not saying I am an amazing player, but that strategy took major skill to pull off, and not just anybody can do it. I do not want to see a couple of people who played the game for 10 days pull off that strategy.
*I am making a point, I am in no way putting down Vv or void, btw we lost.....*

I don't like the idea of someone placing mines down on flag... there is no strategy to that, a hof however took some skill. When you choose a hof you give a price to play that class or any other class well enough to be worthy of competing; that price is skill. Some people make back what they put forward, all the hours of practice and playing turned them into a work of art that we all knew and loved has the legion legends. What do you give to place down a turret or mine?? If something can kill for you, why is there no price to pay for it? We did not all start out being able to duel with 5 people at once. I have spent countless hours teaching others how to play and even just being a meat target practice dummy. If there are turrets, mines, and vehicles making lower tier players play like upper tier players then I feel the time I spent and the time of the people I spent it with means less.

Because someone is using an item in a less skillful or tactical way does not mean the item is inherently skill-less or has no tactical value, all it means is that they aren't using it in a tactful way. Take GLS for example, people used to place it on the flag all the time to mimic a sort of remote detonated mine. Do you just run into it and die or take a ton of damage? No, you tell your LO to attack the person who's holding down their fire button waiting, forcing them to release and fight back or die. The same goes for mines, turrets and whatever else, it's just something for LO to take care of, which adds a higher skill gap to the position.

When 2 very good players went at it, time seemed to slow down. There was a dance that each person would do while trying to be aggressive and not take hits at the same time. You had to think quickly on how this person plays, what guns he uses, and how do I make him stop breathing, or undressing me with his eyes. *APC...*. There is none of this when it comes to setting down a mine, turret, or a vehicle that will make you faster, give you stronger guns, and bassicly a new set of armor that will absorb bullets while you just hop out laughing at the 3 people it took to kill it in the first place.

I don't see why you're trying to argue for dueling when designing and balancing the meta game around team play is without a doubt the way things will be done. If you're that passionate about dueling maybe you should check out the Duel Mod thread.

Additionally, none of these features are set in stone. It's possible they won't be added, while it's just as possible that they will be and at this point it's in the hands of the development team.
 

Volt Cruelerz

Legions Developer
Yar, so the turret would then be returned to its original location, instead of at a (possibly) awkward place to retrieve the attachment.
Maybe something else that could be done is that the energy beam retracts itself to its origin so it's not just lying around glowing for no reason. I don't know maybe this could be easier for the devs, isntead of having to implement physics for it while on the ground, that's why I make this suggestion.
Why not make the Tether a Glowing Energy beam?
You could explain that it's completely incorporeal, and therefore doesn't matter if it passes through anyone.

Or just go with a fixed turret, either way.

Okay...
First off, the tethers I envisioned would basically come out of a dispenser similar to the current ammo ones, or perhaps some sort of domed object on the ground. Upon detachment, it would fall to the ground and fade away. If someone wanted to get a new one, they go back to the tether's base and hook up to a new one (unlimited number)

The other end would attach to the back of the player, Seymour. One end is attached to the base, the other is the player's back and then from there, a small arm or tube, or what have you would attach to the gun.

In regards to tangling, why not? In fact, I was actually thinking about this to the point of you being able to drape the tether over a ledge and hanging down the side. Let's say you had flying mobile bases on a level with tethers on them; players could hook up to them and hang over the side of the base, and you could do all sorts of things in regards to swinging to get some radial speed going on...

Not only that, but the PRIMARY reason for wanting a physical cable was ammo. How are you going to justify the CG having unlimited ammo unless... Wait...

If you made the shots of the CG glow when tethered, you could justify that as the thing shooting small plasma pulses, thereby justifying a noncorporeal energy beam.

My question in regards to an energy beam, would it still limit your length and could you drape it over physical objects or would it pass through the wall whereas you would not?
 

SeymourGore

Flatulent Cherub
The other end would attach to the back of the player, Seymour. One end is attached to the base, the other is the player's back and then from there, a small arm or tube, or what have you would attach to the gun.

It reminds me of some sort of killer fire hose. As for making tangling a feature of the turret, I dunno, seems like it would take away from the increased mobility of the turret that you were originally trying to go for (due to not being able to make tight turns without tangling yourself on the tether). And in that case, I think a more heavily fortified traditional turret would make more sense.

As for the tether turrets being attached to large, floating bases; Now that sounds kinda cool. Not sure if it would look goofy in actual practice, but it's definitely an interesting idea.
 

Volt Cruelerz

Legions Developer
I guess a fire hose is one way to look at it...

So I guess an energy beam is the preferred option then? If you justified the beam with the CG ammo, I'd be okay with it.

And actually, I'm drawing up an idea for a map now that has two ships circling on opposite sides of a huge crater with the ships acting as moving bases. You wouldn't be able to control their movement, but there would be tethers allowing you to hang off the the ships. Since they would always move, it would add some dynamics to a game with two typically static bases. Also, since the ground wouldn't be flat inside the crater, things would change as the game went on and the ships moved.
 
Take the time to step back from your experiences and look at the possibilities that are opened up by these things. There have been MANY instances where they have proved to be a fun addition, though there are also the times where they can cause you to rage so hard that your veins pop. If you can provide good ideas, levelheaded feedback, and well-tested balancing issues there will be MUCH more credence to your opinions than a rant will ever bring. Right now, none of that is possible until these things are released, and that is no guarantee, so let's just let people throw their ideas around. Someone out there has a GREAT idea right now that could change the face of the game, but hasn't put it out for perusal yet. Of course, if they get ranted at when they post it, they will be less likely to continue expounding on their idea. Let's just let people have fun with ideas right now, and accept that some of this has potential to be great stuff. It will all be sorted out in time!

There will always be disparity in tactics used by skilled and less skilled players, but using a different game to judge the ideas being developed for this game isn't a fair assessment

So your telling me to provide a tested idea on something that I have no way of testing except from what I know from other games... Then when I give my opinion you rant about my ideas after telling people not to rant on another persons ideas?? You talk about stepping back from experience on other games after you use your experience in another game to say it could be good? How are we going to judge this idea on something legions does not have, we can only go off of what we know from other games. By comparing to other games we can get a clearer idea of the type of stuff that person is thinking about. History will repeat itself. Example: If we had no sniper..... and you asked for a sniper.... we would probably talk about snipers in other games. Now lets say we added a sniper that was not in other games, the old charge sniper. People didn't like this sniper so they wanted an idea for a new sniper. The new sniper that we have now... reminds me exactly of the T:V sniper....

There will always be disparity in tactics used by skilled and less skilled players, but using a different game to judge the ideas being developed for this game isn't a fair assessment. Rabbiting is frowned upon because griefers use it as a tool to do their job in pub games and is just an annoying strat in general, also why it's not allowed in competition. It's really not that hard for any skilled players to stop, especially with fall damage, though.

Any skilled player that wants to rabbit will give you a hard time and I doubt fall dmg will even come into play because they know how to ski... I am a chase sniper... I was well known for chase sniping..... but when someone like kryst just decides to up and rabbit there is trouble even for me.... especially when he snipes back.....the jerk...:p

Because someone is using an item in a less skillful or tactical way does not mean the item is inherently skill-less or has no tactical value, all it means is that they aren't using it in a tactful way. Take GLS for example, people used to place it on the flag all the time to mimic a sort of remote detonated mine. Do you just run into it and die or take a ton of damage? No, you tell your LO to attack the person who's holding down their fire button waiting, forcing them to release and fight back or die. The same goes for mines, turrets and whatever else, it's just something for LO to take care of, which adds a higher skill gap to the position.

About the skillful item thing, what part of an auto attacking turret or mine that blows up when you touch it takes skill. If you are talking about a giant turret you hop in to shoot like Rambo on crack then I am still against it. The normal cg is bad enough lets not make a giant one with infinite ammo.

The cluster thing was cheep but still took someone to make it detonate, a mine you just drop and forget. A good faint will make the hof blow the overdrive and cluster load in 1 go while you just swoop to get flag from the other side. A mine from what I know just blows up when you get close to it...there is no skill involved... if your thinking of a mine that will detonate by some kind of remote then we are thinking of 2 different mines, but I am still against it, we already have a cluster...... and we don't need every class using it when cluster is at least stuck to just the heavy.

I don't see why you're trying to argue for dueling when designing and balancing the meta game around team play is without a doubt the way things will be done. If you're that passionate about dueling maybe you should check out the Duel Mod thread.

My argument is this is a game that takes skill. Dueling takes skill. Running out and placing a turret or mines takes no skill, takes no thought, and the only thing it does take is brain cells for using it.
When 2 very good players went at it, time seemed to slow down. There was a dance that each person would do while trying to be aggressive and not take hits at the same time. You had to think quickly on how this person plays, what guns he uses, and how do I make him stop breathing, or undressing me with his eyes. *APC...*. There is none of this when it comes to setting down a mine, turret, or a vehicle that will make you faster, give you stronger guns, and bassicly a new set of armor that will absorb bullets while you just hop out laughing at the 3 people it took to kill it in the first place.

I was very open minded about this post. I stated my thought and why I felt the way I did instead of just saying "I am against this idea." I said I don't like it, and that I would hate it, but I never said it was a bad idea. You left out the part when I said
Even in games like bfbc2 I hated the vehicles, so maybe it is just the way I think. The idea could work I guess... no matter what happens I will try and adapt, but doesnt mean I will like it.

If in your eyes I was raging because I ranted then you just raged at me..... that hurts my feelings.....
 
Okay...

Not only that, but the PRIMARY reason for wanting a physical cable was ammo. How are you going to justify the CG having unlimited ammo

Easy, This isn't the dark ages.
What appears to be a glowing beam of light, is in fact matter (your ammo) being transported either through something like subspace, or slightly out of phase (so as to still be vaguely visible, but not have any physical properties until it reaches you and is converted back into cold hard bullets.

We are after all talking about a situation where you can respawn with the touch of a button, and our rockets are a mini thermo-nuke (if my memory of those descriptions that used to be included are accurate)
 

Volt Cruelerz

Legions Developer
Easy, This isn't the dark ages.
What appears to be a glowing beam of light, is in fact matter (your ammo) being transported either through something like subspace, or slightly out of phase (so as to still be vaguely visible, but not have any physical properties until it reaches you and is converted back into cold hard bullets.

We are after all talking about a situation where you can respawn with the touch of a button, and our rockets are a mini thermo-nuke (if my memory of those descriptions that used to be included are accurate)

Okay, so while you could pass through it, could it pass through walls?
 
Okay, so while you could pass through it, could it pass through walls?
I don't know. It would be tempting to say no, perhaps say the heavy metals in the walls disrupt the signal and so it can't pass through the thick walls, But. then you would have difficulty in that people would try to walk around a nearby corner or something and the tether would be cut.

Um, I don't know, I was just throwing forth ideas. Brainstorming, as it were.
 

Mhi200

Member
I disagree with vehicles. I brought it up on the old IA forums, and was told they wouldn't be added (ever). I think they would maybe break the balance of the game(Unless only in a special game mode).
 

Volt Cruelerz

Legions Developer
I don't know. It would be tempting to say no, perhaps say the heavy metals in the walls disrupt the signal and so it can't pass through the thick walls, But. then you would have difficulty in that people would try to walk around a nearby corner or something and the tether would be cut.

Um, I don't know, I was just throwing forth ideas. Brainstorming, as it were.

Well, if we made the tether basically some sort of glowing chain it could still support it. Just make sure that it only interacts with the parent static object (everything aside from players and weapons fire) by glowing brighter where it contacts. That way, it would look like its actively trying to stay corporeal there, but elsewhere it could just be a soft glowing beam...
 
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