So uh, splash back up, eh?
- Thread starter Redvan
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Redvan
Private Tester
what, uh, was the reason to make it bad again? just out of curiosity?
Just wonderin if it was a valid reason or someone qq'ing because they cant aim
Redvan
Private Tester
i can take the hate, i just cant stand the splash
HE LANDED! KACHUNK KACHUNK KACHUNK!
DOS4/GW
Member
Enough people crying would equal a valid reason.
Legions isn't only for veterans who've developed pin-point accuracy, and the game has a steep enough learning curve as is.
Daphinicus
Private Tester
Personally, this is why I fought to have it raised again. There's a subconscious yet pervasive sense of elitism permeating the community; with so few players (comparatively) and so many veterans (again, comparatively), it can be easy to balance for those among the player base that are far above-average in skill level. When it comes to good game design, that's simply unacceptable; like DOS pointed out, the game's difficult enough for newbloods to get into as it is.
Propkid
Member
Modes to the rescue! http://forums.legionsoverdrive.com/threads/modes.227/#post-5006
No, I won't shut up about them until someone tells me if anything in their likes will appear in the game or not ;p
SeymourGore
Flatulent Cherub
My main concern about 'modes' is that they would make the game have an even higher barrier for new players. By introducing multiple variables, "no gravity, more splash, less damage, etc", to the main game, you'll create confusion for new players who are trying to figure out the base mechanics.
I'd much rather see full-on mods of the base game (and appropriately labelled as such) than a multitude of gameplay adjustments. Stuff like 'number of caps to win', 'number of kills to win'; I don't mind those that much. It's the changes to actual fundamental gameplay itself that Seymour gets concerned about (splash damage, insta-gib, etc).
Also, for the record, Seymour enjoyed the tapered down splash damage. It felt less disconnected to Seymour. Sure you could argue that it's easier for new players to get used to the game, but on the same token it also makes it easier for more experienced players to rip apart new players (good accuracy + increased splash damage = poor, beatup Seymour). Heck, 'below-average accuracy + increased splash damage = poor, beatup Seymour'.
Daphinicus
Private Tester
Balancing for one set of gameplay parameters is hard. Balancing for more than one set would make the programmers cry. And I don't know about you, but I don't really want to be in the room when Mabe and DeadGuy start sobbing in each other's arms.
Seriously, though, there's definitely something to be said for balancing for competitive gameplay, since that's really where the "balance" comes into play, and I know for a fact that Mabe looks to PUGs when he's working on the numbers. That doesn't instantly negate the importance of servicing the newblood, though. And besides, we already have a hitscan weapon in the LR and a high-accuracy weapon in the CG. The way I figure it, explosions should be... you know... explodey.
Plus, all balancing issues aside, it's the rocket launcher. It's the bread-and-butter weapon of Legions, and has always been just as much about the ground-pound as the MA. As a die-hard ground-pounder that repeatedly gets destroyed in duels with anyone whose aim trumps mine, I can fairly honestly say that while it IS a tactic, it's far from a game-breaking one. I did, after all, get a brilliant 54 points in a PUG in Gorge the other day. =)
[Edit: Just wanted to add, fun should trump everything else. I can't speak for anyone else but me, but gosh darnit, I find ground-pounding fun. It's like a little minigame of depth perception and anticipation.]
GReaper
Grumpy
It can be analysed again at a later date. The amount of testing on the implemented changes was minimal and rushed through without any chance for feedback.
If you want splash damage changed, you might want to create a new thread in the suggestions forum. There are already topics regarding the laser rifle and chaingun, but nobody has created a thread suggesting this.
If you want splash damage changed, you might want to create a new thread in the suggestions forum. There are already topics regarding the laser rifle and chaingun, but nobody has created a thread suggesting this.
Redvan
Private Tester
what if the RL were to be reduced to the other value, but keep the GL up? That would be a compromise both ways. Less splash overall, yet, there would still be a weapon that can be used for poundage.
I'm not trying to make this elitist, and the old splash values weren't really at that level at all. Most noobs are going to miss the ground shot anyway, so, high damage or low, it doesn't matter anyway. The mediocre/good players that can already hit the ground shots just have it really, really easy. As Seymour said:
Look at a noob and a good player going in to the enemy base for example, the noob is not going to be able to hit much of anything in the first place, but with all the better players spamming left and right with splash, it just creates a clusterfuck in which the noob will die super fast, the good LO will survive a little, but also be quickly overcome. So the high level of splash isn't really helping the noobs out. It simply teaches them to throw as much splash around before they die as they can, perhaps they'll get the splash kill on someone that had 1/8 health left.
Also, like Seymour said, it felt really good with that level of splash. Not only did it decrease the spam at all levels of play and positions, but it gave a reason to actually be good (or get good) at aiming.
Take a look at Tribes, since it's most comparable to that and many people here have played it: That game was spamtastic. Low maneuverability and low acceleration + huge splash radii = throw as much as you can at the enemy and hope you win. Especially the nade launcher, that thing was quite quick on the ROF and had a ton of splash. I went back and played some T2 for a couple days (it was all I could bare) after having played FE:L and noticed just how much players relied on rapid firing nades. It just makes for a spammy game.
While ground pounding is fun (to some), useful, and a valid tactic, reduced splash doesn't really make it that much worse for those who fully rely on it or just do it for fun. They were going to hit those shots anyway. And honestly, I didn't see one noob say anything down the lines of "I cant do any damage to the bad guys, why?" It seems the only people who noticed the change were the ones that are hitting shots in the first place.
The reduced splash did, however, create a much better fluidity in gameplay, imo. It created a higher (but not excessively high) need to aim, thus increasing challenge while eliminating much of the clusterfuck that is often found.
EDIT: You can move this to suggestions if you wish.
I'm not trying to make this elitist, and the old splash values weren't really at that level at all. Most noobs are going to miss the ground shot anyway, so, high damage or low, it doesn't matter anyway. The mediocre/good players that can already hit the ground shots just have it really, really easy. As Seymour said:
Look at a noob and a good player going in to the enemy base for example, the noob is not going to be able to hit much of anything in the first place, but with all the better players spamming left and right with splash, it just creates a clusterfuck in which the noob will die super fast, the good LO will survive a little, but also be quickly overcome. So the high level of splash isn't really helping the noobs out. It simply teaches them to throw as much splash around before they die as they can, perhaps they'll get the splash kill on someone that had 1/8 health left.
Also, like Seymour said, it felt really good with that level of splash. Not only did it decrease the spam at all levels of play and positions, but it gave a reason to actually be good (or get good) at aiming.
Take a look at Tribes, since it's most comparable to that and many people here have played it: That game was spamtastic. Low maneuverability and low acceleration + huge splash radii = throw as much as you can at the enemy and hope you win. Especially the nade launcher, that thing was quite quick on the ROF and had a ton of splash. I went back and played some T2 for a couple days (it was all I could bare) after having played FE:L and noticed just how much players relied on rapid firing nades. It just makes for a spammy game.
While ground pounding is fun (to some), useful, and a valid tactic, reduced splash doesn't really make it that much worse for those who fully rely on it or just do it for fun. They were going to hit those shots anyway. And honestly, I didn't see one noob say anything down the lines of "I cant do any damage to the bad guys, why?" It seems the only people who noticed the change were the ones that are hitting shots in the first place.
The reduced splash did, however, create a much better fluidity in gameplay, imo. It created a higher (but not excessively high) need to aim, thus increasing challenge while eliminating much of the clusterfuck that is often found.
EDIT: You can move this to suggestions if you wish.
Daphinicus
Private Tester
I think it really just comes down to personal preference. I prefer it higher because to me, the RL has always been ABOUT the splash -- MAs were marks of extraordinary skill (or luck!) that came once in a blue moon, but the real way you USED the RL was by splashing. That was the whole point of the damned thing. It might sound weird, but to me it feels like it's taking away a little piece of the game's soul. It's the staple weapon. It just feels wrong to change it so drastically.
I realize I may be alone in this. That's okay. It's takes all kinds of opinions to make a game. =)
On a different note, the splash IMPULSE is incredibly useful in defending the flag from cappers, since it helps divert them. This may well have just been subconscious bias, but I could have sworn that flag grabs happened a lot more often with the reduced splash, since it became significantly harder to divert cappers from their routes without making direct hits. If we do end up shoving the RL's radius back down, I'm personally hoping we provide a non-damaging trajectory-shift weapon to fill in for the loss of the RL's splash impulse.
I realize I may be alone in this. That's okay. It's takes all kinds of opinions to make a game. =)
On a different note, the splash IMPULSE is incredibly useful in defending the flag from cappers, since it helps divert them. This may well have just been subconscious bias, but I could have sworn that flag grabs happened a lot more often with the reduced splash, since it became significantly harder to divert cappers from their routes without making direct hits. If we do end up shoving the RL's radius back down, I'm personally hoping we provide a non-damaging trajectory-shift weapon to fill in for the loss of the RL's splash impulse.
anak
VIP
Was the RL's impulse reduced? that would cripple HoFing completely. We already have to hit head on while ODing, or the damage is negligible- decreasing impulse would just remove the point of trying to stop anything that presses R
:|.
Daphinicus
Private Tester
The impulse was originally reduced just like the damage. When the damage was reverted (well, not technically reverted, but close enough for this post), I assume the impulse was as well, though I haven't done any empirical testing to confirm / asked Mabe.
I meant that, should the final RL splash be reduced once again, the impulse would likely do the same. In that situation, I'd start lobbying for a new weapon to fill the role of trajectory-changer.
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