Hotswap, GLspecialist, new classes and other nerfed FE:L content: Your opinions
- Thread starter Propkid
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OmniNept
Actionaut
Well, it's not as though the DP expands ubiquitously.
However, you do bring to the table an interesting point: skill should be rewarded. As such, I've designed a secondary feature for the DP rifle. For each DP kill, the player's awarded one skill point (SP); after having obtained two SP, a charge attack becomes available. This attack looks and functions very much like Wing Zero's buster rifle, as seen here.
The player is able to fire twice before having to regenerate SP.
Ghedit: /slap OmniNept
Mabeline
God-Tier
Nerfed or removed content is staying that way. All the changes you listed were done by DeadGuy and I (I wrote the hotswap, new sniper, impact damage, DG did the rest...) and neither of us think we made any bad decisions. The last build of the game was easily the most balanced, and we have no intention of going backwards.
Propkid
Member
Ok that tells me what I wanted to find out with this thread. Now, if that's ok with you, I'll go a bit off topic and take my chance and ask you what I wanted to ask for ages already:
If the changes made to FE:L over the past years you were aimed at balancing the game, why were there no attempts on fixing up the Outrider classes. They were heavily underpowered both combat-wise and CTF-wise, and as a consequence of that they were hardly ever picked by the players.
Mabeline
God-Tier
Because outrider isn't underpowered and the best chasers and cappers in the game consistently use it. Some things aren't going to be used well in pubs if only because the general skill level is near-zero.
57thEnryu
Member
er, actually one thing about capping is that you need to use overdrive and afterward still have some health. with the outrider you use overdrive and theres like 10 hp left. I personally use the raider for capping, sentinel for defense, and outrider, I never use it.
discord
Private Tester
Overdrive is required for certain routes, but it isn't necessary in general for capping. I've had no issue using OD as needed when capping in outrider. Watch Hominggun (xspartanx) cap sometime and you will see what a well played outrider can do when it comes to flag horking.
AFireInAsa
#1
Bring back the shanking!
jedics (ovo)
Member
I kind of know what reply I am going to receive with this (cough mabel cough) but here is my 2 cents on the nerfed class abilities.
Yes there were balancing problems, but deleting the whole premise severely reduced the depth of game play.
Yes GLS was OP, so reduce its damage and radius of effect like has already been done for the defender class, no one can argue that it is currently OP.
Hot swapping, I propose bringing it back with a change, allow it to fire 1 nade and then a rocket as fast as the player can change but then make him have to wait for the 3rd shot the same amount of time any other class would take to fire 3 shots. eg. if it takes say 2 seconds for each shot to reload then gunner would be able to fire a nade and a rocket in the first second but then have to wait 6 seconds to be able to fire again.
Lazer rifle, again it was overpowered, so reduce its power! Apart from that I saw no problem with the way it was implemented.
Sentinel, I should fear this class when cornered by one, currently I dont AT ALL, I think the sent should have all the powerful weapons available to the one class as before.eg. chaingun2, rocket RLS style and cluster grenades.
RLS, I hear it was nerfed because its knock back was to easily used to put cappers of their routes and to stop players from gaining altitude which was to much of an advantage. So take away its knock back effect to solve this.
No body thinks balancing of the classes is more important than me, but surely the fun and depth in game play that 'class abilities' brought made just deleting the whole idea to big a price to pay? 'Class abilities' with things like Remote detonation was one of the biggest things Legions brought to the table over tribes.
I really would like to hear from the ppl that considered it 'best' just deleting the whole idea, Surely the above solutions would go a long way to solving the balancing issue?
thoughts?
Yes there were balancing problems, but deleting the whole premise severely reduced the depth of game play.
Yes GLS was OP, so reduce its damage and radius of effect like has already been done for the defender class, no one can argue that it is currently OP.
Hot swapping, I propose bringing it back with a change, allow it to fire 1 nade and then a rocket as fast as the player can change but then make him have to wait for the 3rd shot the same amount of time any other class would take to fire 3 shots. eg. if it takes say 2 seconds for each shot to reload then gunner would be able to fire a nade and a rocket in the first second but then have to wait 6 seconds to be able to fire again.
Lazer rifle, again it was overpowered, so reduce its power! Apart from that I saw no problem with the way it was implemented.
Sentinel, I should fear this class when cornered by one, currently I dont AT ALL, I think the sent should have all the powerful weapons available to the one class as before.eg. chaingun2, rocket RLS style and cluster grenades.
RLS, I hear it was nerfed because its knock back was to easily used to put cappers of their routes and to stop players from gaining altitude which was to much of an advantage. So take away its knock back effect to solve this.
No body thinks balancing of the classes is more important than me, but surely the fun and depth in game play that 'class abilities' brought made just deleting the whole idea to big a price to pay? 'Class abilities' with things like Remote detonation was one of the biggest things Legions brought to the table over tribes.
I really would like to hear from the ppl that considered it 'best' just deleting the whole idea, Surely the above solutions would go a long way to solving the balancing issue?
thoughts?
sugardemon
Member
Gonna disagree with you jedics. I think the changes forced players to abandon 'crutches' as kryst puts it, and learn to play a little better.
GLS wasn't really OP unless combined with the raider's mobility. GLS jump made chasing way too easy.
Not hotswapping means you have to hit your target, not just cover the area hes in. 1-2 punch idea has some merit, not sure I want players who can hit their targets to be able to do that much damage that quickly tho.
I don't think you played any good sentinels. I was fairly happy with the build (I played it almost exclusively, even in roles that were traditionally filled by lighter armor). Properly handled, it can achieve nearly the same speeds as raider, but is VERY unforgiving of poor, or even moderate skiing. In duel situations you have to make decisions about when taking a hit will allow you to land a similar shot on your target, when to use iOD to surprise your opponent, gain cover/height or just go for the OD nuke, and vary your combat style depending on which loadout you have chosen. I'd say its a 'deep' class. Giving me all the specialist weapons at once would probably have been very bad (for other players, anyway), but we'll have to wait and see how the new loadout system works and what the players can do with the new weapons.
Problem with RLS was the short arm time. It made it very spammy, with similar results to hotswapping, except it just made capping impossible instead of killing you. An arm distance 2 or 3 times what was implemented would probably have let it keep some of its anti-capper utility, but would induce much more severe precision requirements and restrictions on shot frequency. Again, however, we have to see what they already have in the works for the new loadouts.
The laser rifle implementation was bad because it was way too easy to hit someone, regardless of speed, and near-infinite range was fairly ridiculous. The biggest complaint (and I assume you have the same one, you really didn't specify) I've heard about it was that it was too hard to hit someone. I'm really ok with that. Skiing a 250+ route is hard, too. We still do it.
I think you're choice of 'deleting' as a descriptor for these changes was incorrect. GLS remained intact with the sentinel armor, the sniper was still very, very effective, sentinels were required for CTF play, RLS was kind of shelved because a solution was never really found (and the behind the scenes builds were supposedly too different to really comment on, PTs would have to weigh in on that), and hotswapping was just a bug that got fixed.
GLS wasn't really OP unless combined with the raider's mobility. GLS jump made chasing way too easy.
Not hotswapping means you have to hit your target, not just cover the area hes in. 1-2 punch idea has some merit, not sure I want players who can hit their targets to be able to do that much damage that quickly tho.
I don't think you played any good sentinels. I was fairly happy with the build (I played it almost exclusively, even in roles that were traditionally filled by lighter armor). Properly handled, it can achieve nearly the same speeds as raider, but is VERY unforgiving of poor, or even moderate skiing. In duel situations you have to make decisions about when taking a hit will allow you to land a similar shot on your target, when to use iOD to surprise your opponent, gain cover/height or just go for the OD nuke, and vary your combat style depending on which loadout you have chosen. I'd say its a 'deep' class. Giving me all the specialist weapons at once would probably have been very bad (for other players, anyway), but we'll have to wait and see how the new loadout system works and what the players can do with the new weapons.
Problem with RLS was the short arm time. It made it very spammy, with similar results to hotswapping, except it just made capping impossible instead of killing you. An arm distance 2 or 3 times what was implemented would probably have let it keep some of its anti-capper utility, but would induce much more severe precision requirements and restrictions on shot frequency. Again, however, we have to see what they already have in the works for the new loadouts.
The laser rifle implementation was bad because it was way too easy to hit someone, regardless of speed, and near-infinite range was fairly ridiculous. The biggest complaint (and I assume you have the same one, you really didn't specify) I've heard about it was that it was too hard to hit someone. I'm really ok with that. Skiing a 250+ route is hard, too. We still do it.
I think you're choice of 'deleting' as a descriptor for these changes was incorrect. GLS remained intact with the sentinel armor, the sniper was still very, very effective, sentinels were required for CTF play, RLS was kind of shelved because a solution was never really found (and the behind the scenes builds were supposedly too different to really comment on, PTs would have to weigh in on that), and hotswapping was just a bug that got fixed.
jedics (ovo)
Member
ye, I am the first to admit that my view of things is a little slewed because the sheer amount of players (and good ones) in the US compared to australia which does bare on the outcome of what Im on about. Anyway Im just thankful legions is coming back with some new content finally.
Propkid
Member
First of all there was the option of incorporating hotswap as a part of the game. To a certain degree it was fair- you learn something new and you get better at the game. The only issue were the Gunners having loads of ammo of both GL and RL, hence causing a lot of spam (yea IMO the devs didn't see the true reason for imbalance)
Other thing is that you didn't mention a single word about the Outriders.
Just to throw in my part on the above argument about Outriders: never seen anyone but me use them, and I've never seen anyone cap without OD with decent defenders being up and active, except on Zenith and that new map I forgot the name of. Also, look at how both Sentinels and Riders are good at combat, and Outriders stand no chance.
/like, but that doesn't really tell us anything about what do you have in your plans ;] I know that priority no1 is to get L:O up and running, but I guess that you have some sort of a general idea what course will L:O development take afterwards ;]?
DeadGuy
Legions Developer
We can post some of the proposed ideas pretty soonish now, since we have at least a few PTs (and more to be added) that can test a few of them. Once we make sure they aren't broken we can bring them into the light. I don't want to do any bait and switch, even if it seems like we are using some of the vagueness IA employed.
Plus, I certainly can't be spreading bits of info in the forums that most people don't see. We are going to have a much better method of releasing info than just commenting in random posts. Hope you understand. <3
Plus, I certainly can't be spreading bits of info in the forums that most people don't see. We are going to have a much better method of releasing info than just commenting in random posts. Hope you understand. <3
Mahidhar
Member
Ironically, that new map's name is Forgotten.
Disci
Old man
What part about Mabels post was unclear to you? Let me quote him again.
OD is not the only way to fetch the flag. Too bad some maps are designed that it is most effective way to get the flag but it doesn't mean other ways doesn't work vs good defense. And about you haven't seen anyone else use them, I guess you should open your eyes then...
TwistedShadow
Member
Old sniper FTW>.<!!!!!!!!!!!!
While I never actively abused the hotswap glitch, when it was removed I occasionally noticed that when I was dueling and switched weapons it didn't happen due to it being too fast after firing...while that was as it should be, I think it should be changed slightly. Eg. If 1-2-3 are pressed before the cooldown period is over, instead of nothing happening, the switch weapon command happens automatically as soon as is allowed without frequiring another key press.
MJ1284
Member
But what if you change your mind during the cooldown period? At one instance you'd want to use rockets but right after that you decide that chaingun would be better instead, auto-switch would merely confuse you in that situation.
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