Spawn Updates on Public Test

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Aki

Member
le sigh.

My god man, they want to go away from this. That's why their thinking up of alternative options to add depth, but not alter the flow of the game.

Why is there so much hate for the developers right now?

I'm not hating on the developers. I'm not hating on anyone. I'm arguing against the people who are saying that they want L:O to be more like Tribes. If the devs really are headed away from Tribes, then good. In the meantime, there are still people clambering for a Tribes clone. Given the devs' pretty good track record for accommodating the vocal group, I am being vocal about my opinion in the hopes that our dev team doesn't do so again and accommodate those who ought to just go play Tribes since they love it so much.

Aki,

Go watch some old 5150 and vanguard demos and watch people who actually know how to play the game. There is a link to tons of demos in the tribes universe fourms. After you watch those you will see what everyone is talking about. Because i dont think you can get a fair view of the game by having little to no experience and just running around not really knowing what your doing.

I played for a quite a while early in the decade and learned a fair amount about the game. My playing yesterday was more a reacquaintance than anything. As I said in my earlier post, nothing's changed. It was nothing but spam in '01-3, it's nothing but spam today. Even when I got a game where the team I was on managed to defend its assets, a lot of the time the team would get so distracted hitting the enemy's assets that no one would go for the flag and we would still lose; or we would have an epic vehicle battle in midfield, which was always fun but never accomplished anything.

Not what I want for Legions, personally.
 

MungeParty

Legions Developer
We had plans for implementing base assets and player loadouts as part of a full overhaul to Legions before it got backburnered in favor of InstantJam. The private testers were privy to the plans and had access to all the concept art and design documents. I'll go ahead and share where we were heading before the shutdown just for the sake of getting those ideas out there. This is by no means dictating how things should be done. We did put a great deal of thought into these issues, so I'm just posting this to try to help, but ultimately it's the community team's decision which direction is taken.

The plan revolved around a desire to bring more depth to the gameplay and cater to as many play styles as possible while maintaining the spirit of the game. There were three major changes/additions: physics changes, custom loadouts, and base assets.

The first part was a drastic refinement of player physics - slowing down acceleration, adding more of a feeling of fluid momentum, adjusting the camera and camera effects, while adding to the feeling of extremely fast speeds. The idea was that if acceleration is slower, players will be closer to each other at all times - closer targets means more detail on-screen and larger targets, which means more excitement. The stronger feeling of momentum added to the sense of fast speeds and made prediction and leading easier to grasp. We had some early test builds that were starting to feel pretty good. New weapons and weapon balance would follow, along with custom loadouts.

The custom loadout system we were working on was based on a free-to-play dual-currency microtrans model with a leveling system and tiered equipment brackets that you would gain access to as you level. Players would earn soft currency based on their performance, and be granted large chunks upon leveling up, but also have the ability to pay for hard currency. Players would start with a simple versatile preset loadout available to them, with more presets available as they level up. They could also create custom loadouts that would allow them to strongly specialize in particular roles. The goal was to allow players to be able to naturally afford the best equipment to specialize in a single role by natural gameplay, but players who wished to populate more loadouts with top-tier equipment, or have more than one heavily customized loadout would need to spend money. Higher-tiered items would not be more powerful, just more specialized - in the interest of keeping the microtransaction components from interfering with the skill-based nature of the game.

We spent a long time working on the designs, and what surfaced was an out-of-game menu for selecting and customizing loadouts. The menu featured six piece-specific slots for armor (head, chest, arms, legs, wings, core) and a 4x4 grid of equipment slots (similar to a Diablo-style inventory). There was a weight/energy/armor balance in effect for all the equipment, and some would offer special attributes.

One example is that the starting loadout would feature a helmet with decent armor, no energy, and a couple tracking systems for newbies (lead indicator on the targeting UI in-game as well as a skiing hand-holding UI to color-code terrain and sort of guide you on where to land or when to down-jet, etc.). As players became accustomed to leading and skiing, they might choose to create a custom loadout to trade off that headgear for, say, a helm with high energy capacity for increased shield/cloak/jet/snipe power or duration, extra armor, enhanced zoom levels, etc.

The grid was a way for us to balance weight and power against capacity. With this system you could cram as many weapons in there as possible, but if you weren't on the heavy frame, which allowed for the more powerful wing mounts, you would be encumbered most of the time and pretty vulnerable - so there was always a tradeoff. On the other hand, you could have just a rocket launcher (4x1) or chaingun (3x1) and fill the rest of your inventory with of hand grenades (1x1 each) or health/energy charges (also 1x1 each). The grenades were frag, EMP (zero all energy for a short period of time for all in range and cancel overdrive effects), and energy (immediately activate overdrive for all in range). Charges would quickly recover a set amount of health or energy. You could also fill in your extra inventory space extra ammo for specific weapons (2x1 each). So it was pretty flexible in that sense.

The energy core idea came from the private testers (either Bugs or Mabel, I don't remember exactly). They would basically use your energy to perform a special action. We had eight of them ranging from movement overdrives, like the current ones, to special uses: kamikaze, warp, blast, cloak, shield, etc. These would be balanced based on energy requirement, so some of the specialized cores, like warp, would only be available to those who decked out their suits with energy capacity armor pieces, so they would need to sacrifice either mobility or armor. In turn, the energy capacity would make them more suited use equipment fitted to certain specialized roles like healer, engineer, sniper, stealth, etc.

The engineer and healer roles both required a plasma beam (1x3 tall) item that would act as a main-hand weapon with a homing arc-beam type of targeting. The beam would have a relatively short range and recover health for teammates in range, or repair base assets in range. There was a 2x2 range modifier that drastically increased the range.

The base assets plan was to use panels mounted in specific places in the levels. At the start of a round, each structure cluster would have a central mainframe and a series of interior and exterior panels - some with assets already in-place, and some empty. The addition of a 1x1 schematic storage device would allow players to visit the mainframe and load one of any available schematics, move to a panel, and transmit the schematic to the panel - which would cause the panel to begin transforming into the asset the schematic was for. At that point, continued use of the beam by one or more players could drastically speed up production. A single schematic could be used to place any number of base assets of that type, but the player would have to re-visit the mainframe to change schematics for different types of assets or asset upgrades.

Loadout creation and assignment would all be handled between matches, so the assets were limited to in-game stuff. Some of the ideas we were throwing around included: turrets (obviously), sensors, turret tracking enhancement computers, ammo stations, plasma/nano nodes (healing stations, basically), backup servers (keep everything running at reduced capacity if the mainframe goes down), etc.

We talked about a bunch of balance implications. Some of the stuff mentioned here seems insanely overpowered (especially warp), but we had some pretty good balance checks in place from the design front and most of them were talked out in a lot of detail. Note that these changes are a mountain of work to implement and require essentially starting from scratch on all level design. I wish I had some more of the level concept stuff that Lance Bass did for L2 so I could show you guys. Here are a couple:

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Anyway, that's the gist. Here are some design wireframes of the invo equipment grid stuff so you can see roughly what that might look like.

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Sorry for the wall of text. Thanks for reading!
 

Fixious

Test Lead
The majority of his ideas are good, though I'm not all that keen on the micro-transaction model, which the devs can't even legally implement so I'm not worried. I'm also sorta iffy on the whole physics/speed change he stated. I'd rather not slow down the game(I'd like to see it sped up actually, see QUIDDITCH thread), regardless if it brought players closer together and provided more action. The speed is what I like about Legions. If I need to slow down I'll go play Tribes. But again, this would mean a complete physics change, something I highly doubt the devs would/could do.

I remember him bringing up the color-coded terrain to help newbies with skiing, which I found pretty funny since I had that exact same idea even before hearing him state it on the old IA forums.

Bah, I won't respond to everything he wrote. Too lazy.
 

MungeParty

Legions Developer
The majority of his ideas are good, though I'm not all that keen on the micro-transaction model, which the devs can't even legally implement so I'm not worried. I'm also sorta iffy on the whole physics/speed change he stated. I'd rather not slow down the game(I'd like to see it sped up actually, see QUIDDITCH thread), regardless if it brought players closer together and provided more action. The speed is what I like about Legions. If I need to slow down I'll go play Tribes. But again, this would mean a complete physics change, something I highly doubt the devs would/could do.

I remember him bringing up the color-coded terrain to help newbies with skiing, which I found pretty funny since I had that exact same idea even before hearing him state it on the old IA forums.

Bah, I won't respond to everything he wrote. Too lazy.

Microtrans was something IAC wanted, not the dev team. That said, it has its benefits as a business model and with the system we worked out I honestly think it could work for a competitive FPS. One of the major things is that the game doesn't have to do gangbusters right out the gate. The money you make on items goes back to making more items, etc. and it's free to play, so more people come in initially. L:O doesn't need to worry about any of that, so no need to add a bunch of extra variations just to pad the number of items, or do *chocolate cookies* like create visually different versions of essentially the same armor, etc., but believe me when I say we put a lot of thought into making it work for the game because we all hated the idea of typical microtrans. They wanted basically "raider is free, charge to rent sentinel or outrider", so we had to come up with something. :)

The slow down is a touchy subject for exactly the reason you mentioned. People naturally think that slowing acceleration down will make it feel slower, but that's just not necessarily true. It's a matter of scaling world units, basically. You kind of have to play it to know what I'm talking about, but it doesn't just bring players closer and increase action, you also feel like you're going faster at speeds much slower than you typically travel in current L:O due to the momentum tweaks. It's for exactly that reason (the concept is confusing) that I didn't really mention details about physics changes to the public community back in the day. The goal was to test and polish them, and then deliver them as part of this new L2 package all balanced to work together with new maps and in a new engine, and the result would be "holy *chocolate cookies*, this is awesome and feels faster and the new maps and features are rad" instead of putting the new physics in the existing maps, where players have established routes and frames of reference that they expect to travel to/past at certain speeds. Trust me though, it's a vast improvement.
 

MungeParty

Legions Developer
They replaced doing all of this... for... InstantJam...?

Lou Castle was on board with all this stuff for Legions, but the reality is that GG/IA wasn't bringing in cash and IAC made a substantial investment. InstantJam was seen as the quickest way to get us profitable while capitalizing on the IA tech, which Legions wasn't really doing. Let's face it, as much as I love Legions, it's a bit of a niche game. I truly believe that Lou fully intended to bring Legions off the back burner once we were in a position to do so, we just never got there.
 

Calimo

Member
Lou Castle was on board with all this stuff for Legions, but the reality is that GG/IA wasn't bringing in cash and IAC made a substantial investment. InstantJam was seen as the quickest way to get us profitable while capitalizing on the IA tech, which Legions wasn't really doing. Let's face it, as much as I love Legions, it's a bit of a niche game. I truly believe that Lou fully intended to bring Legions off the back burner once we were in a position to do so, we just never got there.

Ah! Cool to get some inside(ish) info! But... I never said Lou >_>
 

MungeParty

Legions Developer
Ah! Cool to get some inside(ish) info! But... I never said Lou >_>
No, I know, I was just saying that the CEO of GG/IA was totally down with doing all this. We just never got a chance to execute on the plan.

It also wasn't Lou who came up with IJ as I understand(I wouldn't mind knowing who it was, thogh).
It wasn't originally Lou's idea, no, although he was a big believer in the project. I think it could have been successful, but it definitely wasn't the small and quick money maker project that I think it was initially thought to be. If we were going to do a quick social game I would have rather done something that didn't require cataloging, fingerprinting, and matching billions of media files across millions of users to each other and also multiple vendor catalogs and then syncing them to user-authored game content (which is what we built, even though the editor never made it out to the public). It probably needed another 6-8 months at least to get to where it would have needed to be to put it on a success path, and IAC wasn't willing to give us that time - understandably so, to be honest, given IA's track record.
 

Gheist

King of all Goblins
[...] People naturally think that slowing acceleration down will make it feel slower, but that's just not necessarily true. It's a matter of scaling world units, basically. You kind of have to play it to know what I'm talking about, but it doesn't just bring players closer and increase action, you also feel like you're going faster at speeds much slower than you typically travel in current L:O due to the momentum tweaks. [...]
Just let me ensure you (those people who read it now), it was awesome. Fixed those *dancing* scale issues that Leejunz was suffering from from day one. Sadly, it would've required a redesign of every map. The L2 plans have been awesome. Also, MungeParty, you should've come to GamesCom Cologne with Ian and James.
 

qqchurch

Member
Anyway, that's the gist. Here are some design wireframes of the invo equipment grid stuff so you can see roughly what that might look like.

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That Shattergun sounds very interesting. I could guess that the first two Loadouts are support classes, what they do I don't know, and the last Loudout is obviously the gunner, or a variation of it.

Most of your ideas are amazing, as are everyone else's, and it makes my head spin (and ache a bit :p) at how much L:O would be different from now and the future (somewhere around 50 or so updates, maybe a hundred) if even half of these ideas were implemented.

I'm not sure if this was asked already, but how much effort would it take to transfer L:O into another engine? I'm pretty sure that most of the devs plans (or at least their vision) would require getting a better engine for Legions.

That's all I'm throwing out on the table for now. :>
 

MungeParty

Legions Developer
It was quite similar to U:T's Flak Cannon, and didn't work out that well. ;)

About the engine change: Better forget about it.
The flak cannon was ok, not great. I think with a bit of polish and balance, something like it could be practical if there were more interior areas where you could take advantage of the ricochet.

I wanted to go to GamesCom, but we were in mid-crunch at the time unfortunately. I love Germany! :)
 

Gheist

King of all Goblins
What about the scaling/acceleration change? Legions still feels like it has a scaling issue.
Well, that's because those changes never went live (as they would've required a redesign of the maps, like mentioned before). They've been planned, they would've been awesome (at least that was the general impression amongst testers and the guys responsible), they would've been a lot of work, and ultimately, they had to be canned ("WE WANT TO MAKE MONEY WITH LEEJUNZ NOW! MAKE PEOPLE PAY FOR PLAYING SENTINEL!" etc.).

[...] I love Germany! :)
Then I'll run into you one day. ;)
 

Fixious

Test Lead
Well, that's because those changes never went live (as they would've required a redesign of the maps, like mentioned before). They've been planned, they would've been awesome (at least that was the general impression amongst testers and the guys responsible), they would've been a lot of work, and ultimately, they had to be canned ("WE WANT TO MAKE MONEY WITH LEEJUNZ NOW! MAKE PEOPLE PAY FOR PLAYING SENTINEL!" etc.).

I was mainly asking if LO will ever experience such a change. I'll take that as a no.
 

Aptiva!

New Member
Damn, I'm really liking that idea of a grid-style inventory. That level of customization is really, really appealing to me. :eek:

Also, getting back to Bugs' suggestion:

For instance, say your team has 2 inventories. If the enemy destroys one of the two inventories, all teammates who spawn while it's down will start with 25% less ammo. Destroying the second will remove the ability to spawn with an OD core or certain weapons or less health or something. Repairing them re-enables these bonuses.

The benefit of this system is that it does not remove from the immediacy of Legions and it still adds depth (read: more tasks than just getting the flag and killing people), and it has a real benefit and impact on the game. Players can still spawn in Sent or Raider and can immediately be effective - just a little bit less so than normal. The ammo reduction increases the amount of time needed to spend visiting ammo stations or respawning, so it is in their team's best interest to keep them up. It's possible that other player-deployed objects can ADD bonuses not normally given by the base assets.

YES PLZ. Can we try it? This shift in the importance of the inventory station seems to be a better fit with the faster style of gameplay. In this way, the stations are still a priority for offense and defense's attention, but definitely a secondary priority to the flag. We wouldn't end up in the kind of scenario that could occur in Tribes, where generator & inventory defense was often competing with the flag for D/O's resources. Less 40% generator/60% flag play (as someone mentioned), more 30%/70%.
 
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