Combos are breaking the game.

[Karnage]

If some OD's before you, just OD him back and when you touch him then make a sharp turn. Most of the time you can still fling that person of a few meters wich still results into them missing the flag. Just experiment with it Karnage!

But back on the nade issue:
View attachment 955
Frostbyte, moonshine, nivosus have became a joke. Every map actually, cap routes dont rely on good returns anymore just make sure you get halfway the map and nade toss that flag!

Appie, I perfected that technique years ago. Literally. It does not work these days unless you are a good distance from the flag when you hit them.

Think of it this way, the problem isn't that they use a combo jump to gain speed or velocity, but that players llama. Llamaing (-like my made up word?) is the real problem. Although llamaing is a natural thing for first timers who don't know how to gain speed, when experienced players llama then combo jump, things start to get annoying. Combo jumping is just another way to gain speed fast, just like rocket jumping. The real problem is llamaing.

It isn't at all acceptable to llama if you are an experienced player. However if the enemy capper is about to cap and you know for sure that none of your cappers will grap the flag before the capper caps it- then llama for your life and combo jump all you like (some chasers are going to want to strangle me now..)

But face it chasers- the situation I just mentioned is a tactical llama; a necessary one. And believe me when is say this- if you were in position like this you too would llama the flag and combo jump for your life.

Llamaing is the problem-not combo jumping

BTW we have multiple threads about this

Can someone lock this thread up....

The problem is that now it is more effective to llama than to cap at high speed. Capping at high speed was more effective than llamaing previously because the capper was out of there at speed and was hard to catch whereas the llama had very little speed and was easy to catch. Now it is more effective to llama because you don't get any damage when you hide and camp somewhere (as opposed to the damage you get from OD capping) and then you can just combo jump out of there at an impossible speed. The problem is not llamaing or the combo jump but both. The combo jump encourages llamaing. Or rather, I should say that until we do away with llamaing the combo jump must be nuked. When they finally decide to make it so the flag can only be moved if the capper is going at a speed exceeding 88 then we can bring back the combo jump, although I still won't like it because I still think it is OP.

 

[Skepsis]

As Ive heard MA's are still more powerful then Combo's. Combo's are fun to use if you know what your doing. If you want to dodge getting Combo'd while coming in for a route either move a bit to the sides so they won't hit you, Shoot him with an MA, or Get LO to pound him. I think in my opinion combo's made defense easier and fun. <3

 

[mario]

100% agree.

Remove.

 

[MJ1284]

Seeing that nade combos are more or less the same as RLS was it's natural it suffers from same imba issues (too easy to hit in midair & knock incoming cappers off course etc.) but nade flagtoss is biggest of these new problems (and it's tough to figure out a counter mechanism without nerfing grenades too much). In Tribes 1 grenades didn't detonate when you shot them which is, admittedly, illogical but atleast it didn't open up new ways to abuse these "accessories"...

When you think of it, T1 hand grenades were well balanced:
+ No hand grenade + flag toss abuse
+ No RLS-ish splash damage in midair (you couldn't detonate your grenades at will)
+ No suicide bombing
+ Able to "rocket jump" in midflight (on itself it's not THAT lame, I really like it that now chasers can actually hope to catch up with flag carrier)

So, should we replace current hand grenades with Tribes hand grenades?

 

[RockeyRex]

for some reason I cannot relate to the problems expressed in this thread.... i guess i never realized them? lol or they never bothered me

Ditto

 

[fatboy]

The hand grenades are screwed for the reasons mentioned by Homingun. I would say it has to be obvious by anyone who knows how to play Legions, and has played previous Tribes games. There are always going to be dumb asses who don't see the imbalance as proven by : original sent, RLS, GLS... must I go on? One has to disconnect themselves from the way they play the game and ask, "does this make sense?"

Anyways, I have much faith in the current dev community, and I can't imagine this current state lasting too long.

 

[RiPTaCk]

Finally someone has approached this problem.

I really don't see the logic behind the combos. The damage and skill to use a combo compared to damage and skill to use a midair is ridiculous. People, who have trouble midairing anybody, now just approach you and do it the kamikaze combo style. Midairing is becoming useless at close range compared to combos.

Skill=>minimal Effect=>Maximal

The same goes with grenade flag toss.

 

[Ragol]

As a chaser I really enjoy the nade combos, it gives me a chance (albeit slight) to chase on smaller maps by getting up to speed quicker, as well as to chase back to front routes on larger maps.

I understand that nade blocks are easier than body blocks, but I don't think they are an issue at all, except maybe in PUBs or with uncoordinated offense

If someone on LD/chase nade blocks one capper, they have much less health to chase the next capper coming in (I'm assuming a competent offense / cap here, so the time between is not significant). The only time I can imagine using a nade block as someone who plays this position is if there is a single capper coming in, or perhaps against an e-grab. Granted, a stay-at-home doesn't have as many drawbacks as an LD/chase for using a grenade block, but it's unlikely that they will be in a position to block two or more cappers in quick succession, considering the grenade impulse.

As for grenade blocks with some distance, I haven't seen them change the defensive game all that much from my perspective, at least not yet. Maybe a capper could weigh in on this one.

The grenades and grenade blocks certainly change the dynamic of the game, but I don't necessarily consider it a bad thing. If the devs were to add a weapon without the gameplay dynamic changing at all, the addition might as well have not happened. I haven't played nearly as many PUGs as some other members of the community have, but in my experience games are still being won by capping out the majority of the time, so I don't see the problem with a defensive buff like this.

 

[Disci]

I find gren jumping a fun addition to the game and would be sad to see it go. Gren tossing the flag is somewhat annoying but I haven't seen any problems with combos yet. Maybe I should start think about it the way old Tribes vet/someone who knows how to play should do. I've spend too much time with 2nd generation fps+z noobs who have no clue.

I don't know if you guys have noticed, but one of the biggest problem we have is OD(at its current state) and no matter what it is still around.

 

[Ragol]

I could write a lot about this, but most of my thoughts have been somewhat expressed by other here. I agree that it is ridiculously easy to carry out a nade-combo, which is convenient when you're the chaser but annoying when you're the one being chased (or as others mentioned, when you're the one chasing a llama/nade-combo/base-to-base capper). To fix this problem, I feel that devs should reduce the hitbox so that it's not a guaranteed hit when I turn around to shoot at my grenade. Other than that though, I think grenades constitute a great addition to the game and should for no reason be removed!

No matter how much the reduction in hitbox size, you're still going to get a guaranteed hit every time you frag jump if you time it properly...I mean, the grenade is falling directly behind you, and you aren't moving your reticle. As for it being annoying being chased, chasing is certainly not ez-mode with the grenade jumping introduction, but it does give me a chance to catch up to straight-through routes.

If chasing were to become too powerful, I believe the community will respond with a change in offensive tactics, instead of having to change the game to compensate for the playstyle. Instead of the HoF being the primary(and often sole) target of offense clearing for cappers, it would be simple to splash chasers a couple times to deny the use of the grenade jumps, especially considering most chasers chase using outrider. In fact, this very tactic has been used for a long time, though it has never caught on in a wider sense for reasons I cannot understand. OmniFilter (or maybe it was xpress), showed me a long time ago in a PUG that he could deny all of my chasing ability in outrider with only a portion of his attention on offense just by splashing me, so I chase in raider.

EDIT: I'd like to add my thoughts on llama nade-jumps as well.

I think this is more of a map issue than anything, relating specifically to the size of maps like Nivosus and Moonshine. I feel that many more aspects of this game than just grenade jumps just don't feel right on small maps like these.

For maps other than those, the llama is likely to be splashed on the grab, and a chaser can grenade jump in less than a second after the llama does, so the speed difference is negligible. When I run into this as someone who chases in raider, I rocket jump, and then grenade jump, and I'm caught up nearly instantly.

If they DO manage to get the throw off, even a boosted grenade throw, I think it comes down to having good communication with your offense, as the flag can be caught just as easily by them as the enemy defenders at their base.

 

[RockeyRex]

Mmh... I seemingly have no clue how to play Legions.

Oh well. Maybe someday.

I love how the same people that earlier cried nades being somewhat useless now cry abuout them being overpowered.

But hey, atleast they all know how to play Legions.

 

[Disci]

I didn't bother to learn nade jumping in Tribes1. I didn't see an use for it except for trickz. It's different since the hitbox is indeed smaller but also you need to change where you aim after the toss to hit it with disk.

 

[Ragol]

As far as I know, that's not how it works in Tribes. I'm fairly certain there's nothing wrong with my timing in Tribes, just the hitbox is much much smaller. I'm not suggesting that we try to reconstruct hand grenade mechanics exactly as they were in Tribes, but at least do something to reduce this 99% guaranteed hit whenever I turn around and shoot my grenade.

A chaser grenade jumps enough that they will get to a point where they can hit it every time regardless. I can't imagine a solution where a competent chaser would end up missing a non-insignificant amount of grenade jumps that did not rely on randomness.

 

[Ucantry2run]

for some reason I cannot relate to the problems expressed in this thread.... i guess i never realized them? lol or they never bothered me

In combate they really aren't a problem, if you know how to keep your distance. Midairs are just as easy, and someone who is proficient with the chaingun can easily gain the upper hand. That being said, a good combo-er can easily take down an inexperienced duelist. The problem is, again, people don't try to adapt to changes before they QQ. Same thing happened with the sniper. REMOVE IT

On the topic of capping...eh, someone COULD use it to get successful caps in a row, but nobody is good enough yet to get to the enemy stand unharmed, dodge fire combing out/hitting a combo and dodging sniper fire on the way out. It could be OP in the perfect scenario, but I personally do not have trouble with any of the cappers. Chasers can easily combo jump after the cappers as well, if he does manage to get out.

Combo-throws are lol. I do agree that the intensity should be nerfed or removed. The idea of no comboing while you have the flag seems balanced.

 

[Homingun]

In a competitive game such as Legions, teams are going to adapt and use anything to win. For example, if a team can't push through the defense on nivo, they start heavy capping or putting more people on offense (or llama nade jumping in this case). Them being successful doesn't mean that whatever they are doing/using is balanced. This was the case with the old LR, the old RLS, the old GLS, etc. Basically it's the "If we are losing, lets break the game" mentality. And why wouldn't they when it works and doesn't get fixed promptly?

Players need to step out of their play style/comfort zone and look at how combos(and anything else for that matter) affect the game as a whole.

I'm going to step out of this thread now but by no means let this stop you guys from discussing.

 

[Poponfu]

Nade llamas and gigatoss are going to get addressed

 

[Ragol]

In a competitive game such as Legions, teams are going to adapt and use anything to win. For example, if a team can't push through the defense on nivo, they start heavy capping or putting more people on offense (or llama nade jumping in this case). Them being successful doesn't mean that whatever they are doing/using is balanced. This was the case with the old LR, the old RLS, the old GLS, etc. Basically it's the "If we are losing, lets break the game" mentality. And why wouldn't they when it works and doesn't get fixed promptly?

Players need to step out of their play style/comfort zone and look at how combos(and anything else for that matter) affect the game as a whole.

I'm going to step out of this thread now but by no means let this stop you guys from discussing.

I think that's actually the purpose of this whole discussion/debate, so not offering rebuttals to the other side is not very productive in this regard.

 

[Redvan]

Oh, and it strikes me as silly that the dev team was so against melee weapons and yet added these combos; or rather, after hearing their arguments against melee, it strikes me as silly that they'd add these combos. They're like "ranged" melee, to use an oxymoron. If you remember, Mabel, you (and I, for that matter) were against melee because of its potential abuse by body blockers (giving them two chances, essentially). If Spartan's description of combo blocking is accurate, you've added exactly that - and then some.

yeah... exactly what I thought too... but, didn't feel like pressing the issue because "MELEE IS BAD", so, no point discussing.

Close range combos are melee for retards.

Sure, you damage yourself, but hell, you're going to be using them most at your own base, you can just respawn and have, like, 20 years or something of spawn protection (whats it at now?).

 

[<('.'<)_kirby_(>'.')>]

I love them, I have had no problems you guys are talking about.... but I dont play much lately so maybe I am just blind.

Scissor players: Paper is fine but rock is OPd!!
Rock players: OMG, Nerf paper~!!!~!
Paper players: Eh, I've never had problems with Rock, but thousands of people will come back to play if Scissor players get nerfed!

 

[OmniNept]

for some reason I cannot relate to the problems expressed in this thread.... i guess i never realized them? lol or they never bothered me

The problems aren't, I imagine, immediately obvious in pubs (or even most pugs). It's at higher levels of organized play that they'd surface.

As a chaser I really enjoy the nade combos

YOU WOULD.

As for grenade blocks with some distance, I haven't seen them change the defensive game all that much from my perspective, at least not yet. Maybe a capper could weigh in on this one.

Being of some capping renown, I'm quite qualified to weigh in on this issue. With the current grenade hitbox, and the current grenade explosion radius, it should be simple to readily hit ranged combos. I imagine it'd take you about an hour to learn, Rags. You would then have two chances to block cappers, or even the ability to block multiple cappers from multiple angles. Now were these combos difficult to strike, these new abilities would simply increase skill differential – a good thing. As it stands, though, I think they're made all too easily.


In terms of nade-blocking, there's another issue to be considered. The previous RLS iteration allowed both defenders and cappers to bounce targets – perhaps a tad too easily, yes, but the idea was interesting. These combos allow much the same effect, but only for defenders. I'd rather both sides have the option, and that that option be skill-based.


(Note: Having run an extremely effective defense, of which Ragol was part, I don't automatically assume offense is overpowered. Many of its advantages can be attributed to either piss-poor defenders/communication or piss-poor map design. That being said, one might contend that smaller maps, while not conducive to chasing, offer a different, though no less valid, gameplay experience; and that were there more than 5-6 maps, people wouldn't mind said experience so much.)

The grenades and grenade blocks certainly change the dynamic of the game, but I don't necessarily consider it a bad thing. If the devs were to add a weapon without the gameplay dynamic changing at all, the addition might as well have not happened.

An excellent point (and one I hope bugs and co. keep in mind), but I think this particular mechanic, left entirely unaltered, would become a bad thing.

Conclusion: put nades in flag hand would solve your problems such as llamaing then base to base and nade bomb suicide to toss the flag further.

That's an obvious and effective solution to the llama/toss problem.


All-in-all, I don't think the combos should be removed outright. Instead, I'd nerf the nade's hitbox, nerf its explosion radius, and prevent their tossing by carriers. Adding depth is great, but let's make sure it's somewhat skill dependent, eh guys?


EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHH?


P.S. I should hope someone's posting these suggestions in the pt forums. I'm not entirely convinced bugsco. takes the public forums . . . seriously.