TheAlchemist
Member
Who knew the almighty Riptack has a weak point... More maps of these please.
Feedback/Opinions on Gorge
- Thread starter Velocity
- Start date
SeymourGore
Flatulent Cherub
It's one of the entrances to Seymour's den. However the secret on how to open the entrance has long been forgotten.
masterluso
Member
So far I like it. The jump pads are cool(though I'd love less damage) and the scenery is nice. I've already made two cap routes on it(which I'm very proud of, they're the first routes I've ever actually made myself), and one of them starts with a jump pad. I have yet to play from the Beta side, but so far I really like it.
yami
Private Tester
i feel like the jump pads should deal a little less damage for the amount of boost you are getting. i definitely need to play this map more but the glaring problem is with the bases, both is the size of the bases and the terrain directly around the bases.
first of all i think legions definitely works best with compact bases. i would say the best bases in the game are on zenith, the niv/moonshine ones are decent, and the beta base (i think it's beta, whichever one doesn't have the bridge running across the towers) on frost has the right idea. a compact base keeps the action centered around the flag, and it keeps said action hot and heavy. with a compact base, defenders are able to fight off the lo and still have a chance to make a play at the flag stopping a capper or what have you. by making the gorge base so big you really handicap the defense by spreading them out so much. you give the lo the upper hand because they can stand 100 yards away and have clear shots at the defense on the flag stand, and defenders have to go very far from the flag to get rid of the lo, rendering them unable to make any plays at the stand.
my other problem is with the terrain around the bases. i like that you guys are trying inhibit the front routes a little and encourage more developed side routes, but the terrain around the sides and back of the bases is just way too ski-able, and when you add in the wide open flag stand it gets out of hand. what i mean by too ski-able is that cap routes should take some time and planning and development. what separates cappers from llamas is that planning; you are investing time into the route, and in reward you are able to grab the flag with more speed and have a better chance at making it home safely. you shouldn't be able to stand on a large hill right next to the base and just ski straight down and be able to grab the flag with decent speed, that's basically just being a fast llama. both bases on frost have a similar problem but it is manageable because exists only behind the flag, so the defense can keep the fast llamas to minimum. on gorge the wide open bases seem to be surrounded on 3 sides (left, behind, right) by decent hills that are relatively close to the stand, making the flag a sitting duck for lo to just hang around on the hills, ski down, and make a decent escape. now i know all the self appointed hardasses are just gonna say "oh big deal those people are sooooooo easy to stop and they aren't even going that fast you need to be going like 300 to get away from me bla bla bla", but the truth is they will have a high success rate, 120 or so is usually good enough to get away, especially since you have some huge hills right in front of the bases that are gonna give them a lot of speed, and that tactic works decently well on frost, and there they are only coming from one direction.
to make the wide open flag stand work, you need to take a lesson from zenith, which uses flatter terrain around the bases, effectively stopping the fast llama.
so yea that's my 25 cents after playing it a couple times, and ive got insomnia which is why i think i wasted so much time writing this instead of sleeping
first of all i think legions definitely works best with compact bases. i would say the best bases in the game are on zenith, the niv/moonshine ones are decent, and the beta base (i think it's beta, whichever one doesn't have the bridge running across the towers) on frost has the right idea. a compact base keeps the action centered around the flag, and it keeps said action hot and heavy. with a compact base, defenders are able to fight off the lo and still have a chance to make a play at the flag stopping a capper or what have you. by making the gorge base so big you really handicap the defense by spreading them out so much. you give the lo the upper hand because they can stand 100 yards away and have clear shots at the defense on the flag stand, and defenders have to go very far from the flag to get rid of the lo, rendering them unable to make any plays at the stand.
my other problem is with the terrain around the bases. i like that you guys are trying inhibit the front routes a little and encourage more developed side routes, but the terrain around the sides and back of the bases is just way too ski-able, and when you add in the wide open flag stand it gets out of hand. what i mean by too ski-able is that cap routes should take some time and planning and development. what separates cappers from llamas is that planning; you are investing time into the route, and in reward you are able to grab the flag with more speed and have a better chance at making it home safely. you shouldn't be able to stand on a large hill right next to the base and just ski straight down and be able to grab the flag with decent speed, that's basically just being a fast llama. both bases on frost have a similar problem but it is manageable because exists only behind the flag, so the defense can keep the fast llamas to minimum. on gorge the wide open bases seem to be surrounded on 3 sides (left, behind, right) by decent hills that are relatively close to the stand, making the flag a sitting duck for lo to just hang around on the hills, ski down, and make a decent escape. now i know all the self appointed hardasses are just gonna say "oh big deal those people are sooooooo easy to stop and they aren't even going that fast you need to be going like 300 to get away from me bla bla bla", but the truth is they will have a high success rate, 120 or so is usually good enough to get away, especially since you have some huge hills right in front of the bases that are gonna give them a lot of speed, and that tactic works decently well on frost, and there they are only coming from one direction.
to make the wide open flag stand work, you need to take a lesson from zenith, which uses flatter terrain around the bases, effectively stopping the fast llama.
so yea that's my 25 cents after playing it a couple times, and ive got insomnia which is why i think i wasted so much time writing this instead of sleeping
DOS4/GW
Member
Wonderful map, very few complaints.
I have experienced quite a few dead stops when using the ramps outside of the base wall...perhaps it's the edges around them?
Also, I was a bit disappointed to find that the tunnels under the bases aren't really that useful. Ever since Mirage came out, I've been imagining the awesomeness that might come from underground chasing; people bouncing off walls, cratering into obstacles, etc. I really do wonder why interiors are used so rarely in this game when, in my opinion, they can offer some really interesting moments.
I have experienced quite a few dead stops when using the ramps outside of the base wall...perhaps it's the edges around them?
Also, I was a bit disappointed to find that the tunnels under the bases aren't really that useful. Ever since Mirage came out, I've been imagining the awesomeness that might come from underground chasing; people bouncing off walls, cratering into obstacles, etc. I really do wonder why interiors are used so rarely in this game when, in my opinion, they can offer some really interesting moments.
Immanent
Member
Too bad everybody can't chainwhore like you
Daphinicus
Private Tester
Whoo-whee, lots o' comments. Here we go...
RiPTaCk's Post
Could be the case; terrain's a pain in the rear to do well in this engine. There's the distinct possibility we'll make subtle changes to fix this sort of thing down the line, but we'll want to be careful to not screw up existing routes.
Gorge was actually designed with the elimination of rapid front routes in mind. That's not to say that you can't use front routes, but they're terribly slow compared with the speeds you can reach on side routes. It was also designed to help chasers catch up with the cappers a little easier; that's what the jump pads are for. Now, there may be a couple hills here and there that are helping front routes out a little too much; if we can, we'll probably try to remove those, assuming it doesn't destroy other, more critical routes.
I'm confused; you don't like the hill spawns because they're not in your base if you need to chase, and you don't like the base spawns because they're not in the hills if you need to cap?
Come on now. HUH?
That's exactly what the jump pads are there for. If the capper leaves out the front, chasers can just use the ramps down the front of the dam to gain the speed they need.
Yami's Post
Gorge bases are about the same size as Zenith bases; in fact, I think Zenith bases are actually a lot bigger, footprint-wise.
We've actually found just the opposite; LO on Gorge is significantly harder than on other maps, because there's no place for them to hide; the layout of Gorge is seriously open, giving defenders an easy view (and easier pickings) on any LO in the area. Since LO have to cross the map to get back into position when they're killed, they don't have the same advantage; when they make kills, defenders are back in the area within a few seconds, and they don't have many places to hide and recuperate.
There might be something to this argument, though it feels like the strategy can be fairly easily countered with a HoF and a couple defenders, since, unlike a fast capper, the defense can see a llama grab (even a fast one) coming earlier and have more time to get into position.
That said, I'm personally of the opinion that a well-timed and executed llama grab is perfectly acceptable, if the flag makes it all the way back to your base and results in a cap. A cap is a cap, no matter how it happens. In a PUG I was in the other day, I saw several successful caps where the flag was llama'd, tossed out the front of the dam, and then grabbed by a speeding capper in the bowl, and all I could think was, "EPIC teamwork."
Cappers are still going to find more success using routes than in doing "fast llamas," but if this means the defense has to shape up their game a bit when playing Gorge and keep an eye out for fast llamas, so be it. Like I mentioned earlier, LD already has an advantage against LO -- sounds like your fast llamas could be a counter to that.
DOS's Post
Yes. Just... yes.
RiPTaCk's Post
Could be the case; terrain's a pain in the rear to do well in this engine. There's the distinct possibility we'll make subtle changes to fix this sort of thing down the line, but we'll want to be careful to not screw up existing routes.
Gorge was actually designed with the elimination of rapid front routes in mind. That's not to say that you can't use front routes, but they're terribly slow compared with the speeds you can reach on side routes. It was also designed to help chasers catch up with the cappers a little easier; that's what the jump pads are for. Now, there may be a couple hills here and there that are helping front routes out a little too much; if we can, we'll probably try to remove those, assuming it doesn't destroy other, more critical routes.
I'm confused; you don't like the hill spawns because they're not in your base if you need to chase, and you don't like the base spawns because they're not in the hills if you need to cap?
Come on now. HUH?
That's exactly what the jump pads are there for. If the capper leaves out the front, chasers can just use the ramps down the front of the dam to gain the speed they need.
Yami's Post
Gorge bases are about the same size as Zenith bases; in fact, I think Zenith bases are actually a lot bigger, footprint-wise.
We've actually found just the opposite; LO on Gorge is significantly harder than on other maps, because there's no place for them to hide; the layout of Gorge is seriously open, giving defenders an easy view (and easier pickings) on any LO in the area. Since LO have to cross the map to get back into position when they're killed, they don't have the same advantage; when they make kills, defenders are back in the area within a few seconds, and they don't have many places to hide and recuperate.
There might be something to this argument, though it feels like the strategy can be fairly easily countered with a HoF and a couple defenders, since, unlike a fast capper, the defense can see a llama grab (even a fast one) coming earlier and have more time to get into position.
That said, I'm personally of the opinion that a well-timed and executed llama grab is perfectly acceptable, if the flag makes it all the way back to your base and results in a cap. A cap is a cap, no matter how it happens. In a PUG I was in the other day, I saw several successful caps where the flag was llama'd, tossed out the front of the dam, and then grabbed by a speeding capper in the bowl, and all I could think was, "EPIC teamwork."
Cappers are still going to find more success using routes than in doing "fast llamas," but if this means the defense has to shape up their game a bit when playing Gorge and keep an eye out for fast llamas, so be it. Like I mentioned earlier, LD already has an advantage against LO -- sounds like your fast llamas could be a counter to that.
DOS's Post
Yes. Just... yes.
Siantlark
Member
It's probably because of the nature of the GL and the RL and how you can just spam the splash damage in a enclosed space and not have to have any sort of aim at all. As long as the guy is inside and you aim in his general direction the splash will take him down very quickly.
Daphinicus
Private Tester
I find them incredibly useful for hiding as an LO (they are the one feasible hiding spot), or for approaching as LO undetected, and jumping out and causing a ruckus so a capper can pass through unimpeded. They aren't designed to be used as cap routes; in fact, they were specifically designed to PREVENT their use for cap routes.
Gheist
King of all Goblins
Surprise! Didn't work.
Same for the front OD routes. But nonetheless: Gorge is definitely the best map that Leejunz has seen yet.
Daphinicus
Private Tester
Surprise! Didn't work.
Well, we tried, anyways. =)
RiPTaCk
Member
I agree with you but they way the bases are designed right now, there are just some angles where you can use fast side routes effectively without crashing in the hill in front of you. I personally can't gain enough height without rocket jump if I go 170+ on a side route to get over the hill after i grabbed the flag. And I havent seen any 190+ routes without rj-ing before or at the flag stand or crashing in a hill after the grab.
They way Gorge is right now, I think side routes won't be effective enough to be used instead of front/back/od routes!
Redvan
Private Tester
i think he's saying he just doesnt want to have to spawn.
I really liked the visual feel of Gorge. The textures and setting seem to go well together. Though the base could use more intricacy (for LO to hide and the carrier to run around and such), It seems to be well built.
Personally, I wish that the back part of the map was a bit more open. It feels as though the base was made to funnel side routes (not as bad as core tough). Also, as others mentioned, the map could use a bit more smoothness. There are many places where the terrain pops out it weird angles (normally on the inside curves of bowls).
The biggest gripe I have about this map right now is that there are spawn points far back behind the base. It takes a while for me to come back to base and be of any use.
I might have a different opinions after people figure out how to exploit certain aspects of the map.
Personally, I wish that the back part of the map was a bit more open. It feels as though the base was made to funnel side routes (not as bad as core tough). Also, as others mentioned, the map could use a bit more smoothness. There are many places where the terrain pops out it weird angles (normally on the inside curves of bowls).
The biggest gripe I have about this map right now is that there are spawn points far back behind the base. It takes a while for me to come back to base and be of any use.
I might have a different opinions after people figure out how to exploit certain aspects of the map.
