As an Old Tribes Player, I'd LOVE to see....

[NYPD219]

Gheist was a griefer even when he played so it is expected.

 

[mausgang]

A mobile base idea would be fine if there was a strategic advantage to having a mobile base moving to different points on the map. What this brings to mind, as I haven't played Tribes, and perhaps I'm not justified in being on this thread since I only have the one point of view, The leviathan from Unreal Tournament 2004. Thus, if a game like Onslaught or some other game mode where strategy and tactics were more important, then there should be some form of in-game voice chat client like what you find in MMORPGs like WOW and DDO, so that the strategies can be more easily conveyed between the team members. Also, then there could be some other support vehicles to the mobile base. However, CTF would benefit from being vehicle-free. The vehicles would just get in the way. Finally, in defense of Mahidar, I think all he was saying about not thinking with legions was that he could get on a PUB and play to while away an evening after a long day and not have to get stressed over strategy and just cap some flags.

 

[SeymourGore]

A mobile base idea would be fine if there was a strategic advantage to having a mobile base moving to different points on the map. What this brings to mind, as I haven't played Tribes, and perhaps I'm not justified in being on this thread since I only have the one point of view, The leviathan from Unreal Tournament 2004. Thus, if a game like Onslaught or some other game mode where strategy and tactics were more important, then there should be some form of in-game voice chat client like what you find in MMORPGs like WOW and DDO, so that the strategies can be more easily conveyed between the team members. Also, then there could be some other support vehicles to the mobile base. However, CTF would benefit from being vehicle-free. The vehicles would just get in the way. Finally, in defense of Mahidar, I think all he was saying about not thinking with legions was that he could get on a PUB and play to while away an evening after a long day and not have to get stressed over strategy and just cap some flags.

No worries about not being a Tribes guy, we're looking for opinions from everyone. As for concerns about not being able to jump into a quick pub and have some fun right away, I think having themed servers could resolve this. For example, "Small Maps" would only have the smaller scale maps in rotation for shorter, more intense matches; Whereas "Large Maps" would only have the larger scale maps (which would likely be more drawn out and effective longterm strategies come into play).

 

[mausgang]

the effective longterm strategy thing... still would probably need a different mode of gameplay for that. I don't see CTF needing long term strategies beyond "You distract the guards, and then our cappers will come in, and take the flag and we keep our flag at our base, rinse, repeat."

 

[SeymourGore]

Where the hell did you see bullshit in my post? Everyone knows turrets and deployables are useless. There's no need to explain why. The only reason I said they where ghei was to emphasize this.

Not everyone thinks that turrets and deployables are useless, in fact, they can (and do) play an important part in a match. If you're not going to give a reason behind your argument, don't worry about posting it.

 

[mausgang]

I thought billygoats were better against trolls than bears were. I can see the use of deployables having played TF2 and Tremulous, (if you know Tremulous, you get mauspoints!) but in legions, motion activated turrets could be used in base defense and nowhere else. Perhaps that's the only place where it would get used, at which point, nobody would get the flag after having to wade through turret fire to get there, and CTF as players know it would go down the tubes. On a side note, if the mobile base could ski just to get down hills...

 

[SeymourGore]

the effective longterm strategy thing... still would probably need a different mode of gameplay for that. I don't see CTF needing long term strategies beyond "You distract the guards, and then our cappers will come in, and take the flag and we keep our flag at our base, rinse, repeat."

Yar, I'll try to give an example of a 'epic scale' CTF match. You're in a large map. Your base is heavily fortified via turrets and other structures. There's also a midpoint objective (say a capturable base that has turrets, ammo stations, respawn stations, etc). Your team could attempt to overpower the enemy right away and grab the flag, which may prove difficult due to the built-in defenses of the enemy base. Or, you could instead focus on capturing that midpoint first, fortifying it, then launching your offensive from there. I think you can see how these variables can make for a more complex level of play.

 

[Gheist]

Where the hell did you see bullshit in my post? [...]

Where the hell do you see me referring to your post, oh raging one? I didn't even mention you! But you're right, there's quite a big amount of that special metaphorical fecal matter to be found in there. Maybe spice it up with some real arguments and facts? I'm pretty sure everyone would be thankful for that. I definitely would.

Gheist was a griefer even when he played so it is expected.

You sure you're not mixing something up here? Even if I would have wanted to grief someone, I would've hardly found the time to do so, as I was quite busy administrating the servers. Hm, thinking about it, I might have been griefing the griefers. Aye, mea culpa.

 

[Mahidhar]

Are you seriously complaining about having to think?

No, not at all. You don't even know how much time, I spend with Legions, trying to learn new things about it, but I don't want to do it every time, I log in. Sometime times I just wanna play the game, to relieve myself, from real life stress, other times, I would spend much more time with it and learn. But no matter what, one should never be forced to learn. I'm just saying that all the things you're speaking of, mustn't incline towards one of these persons. I can't really explain it in words, what I want to express, so it's ok, if you don't get it.

 

[mausgang]

I can see that. Would an 'epic scale' be about as big as blade run? Bigger? I like the sound of this, I've always been decent at tactics, so I would enjoy a greater level of strategy in games sometimes, but not all the time, so I like the idea of having epic CTF, large map regular CTF (I loved exploring Blade Run and stuff like that) and then small map regular CTF.

 

[Volt Cruelerz]

Assets: good
Deployables: good
Capturable Bases on Epic Maps: good
Moveable Bases: bad

Seymour, I know you may like to be able to move bases, but that will cause serious problems with o-sniping and the like. Capturable ones would be fine as they would be at set positions, but if it moves... I see it kind of as what was done in Star Wars Battlefront where some vehicles acted as spawnpoints, but with the terrains and the fact that Legions is largely arial, I'd say they'd probably have to fly which poses problems with sniping and using them as ways to gain massive amounts of speed simply by jumping off. Also, how do you get on to kill it in the first place? Who flies it?

 

[mausgang]

If we go with a battlefront method of mobile bases. There could, instead of a 'driver' be one person with a beacon, who sets the beacon and then the mobile base moves itself that way. This could lead to people who are being silly and immature take over and lead the base astray. How exactly would the mobile bases cause an O-sniping problem? Mobile bases should be destroyable, but you probably won't necessarily get inside. Rockets might be able to lock onto vehicles, especially mobile bases, allowing enemies to fire outside the range of the defensive system. It would be a tricky, but, imo, awesome system to get figured out.

 

[SeymourGore]

Assets: good
Deployables: good
Capturable Bases on Epic Maps: good
Moveable Bases: bad

Seymour, I know you may like to be able to move bases, but that will cause serious problems with o-sniping and the like. Capturable ones would be fine as they would be at set positions, but if it moves... I see it kind of as what was done in Star Wars Battlefront where some vehicles acted as spawnpoints, but with the terrains and the fact that Legions is largely arial, I'd say they'd probably have to fly which poses problems with sniping and using them as ways to gain massive amounts of speed simply by jumping off. Also, how do you get on to kill it in the first place? Who flies it?

I'm going through my post to see if I mentioned movable bases, but I'm not noticing it. Movable bases would open up a whole can of worms, I reckon!

If you're referring to that 'mobile base' vehicle I mentioned earlier, it's far more limited than what it sounds like. :-P

 

[Volt Cruelerz]

If you have a giant floating base overhead, how will it not yield Osniping/Obroadside problems.

But if there are vehicles of any kind, RL's need to be able to lock.. Maybe that can be the functionality for the RLS that would actually be worthwhile...

In regards to the beacon though, would the enemy team be able to move/destroy it or would they even see it to begin with?

I'm going through my post to see if I mentioned movable bases, but I'm not noticing it. Movable bases would open up a whole can of worms, I reckon!

If you're referring to that 'mobile base' vehicle I mentioned earlier, it's far more limited than what it sounds like. :-P

I don't mean the entire base up and moves, but yes, I was referring to mobile bases.

 

[mausgang]

The beacon wouldn't be visible to the enemy team. Also, not necessarily a flying base, there needs to be balance, and so it would need to be slow and on the ground. On an epic map, it may be too slow to ever get to the actual base where the flag is. Also, with Epic games, there should be more players, way more players. Also, and idea for Epic TDM, each player only gets three lives and then last team standing wins?

 

[NightHawk043]

I suspect what Seymour was referring to is something like the Jericho mobile base from T2.

 

[SeymourGore]

I suspect what Seymour was referring to is something like the Jericho mobile base.

Yar, that's what I was thinking of in the vehicle post.

As for the capturable base, think more Scarabrae midpoint area (but with more utility). Basically, a midpoint area designed by the map creator with assets usable by players (if the base is captured). This midpoint is not able to 'move' around, and can be recaptured by the opposing team.

 

[SeymourGore]

They only play an important part of the game if you can't properly defend your base. Now one would argue that in pubs, people indeed are incapable of defending their base efficiently. But mines and turrets would only substitute skill and it would therefore be difficult for players to improve at all. Furthermore, introducing mines and turrets would only further inflame hatred toward pubs as they would not allow for smooth gameplay.

Good enough?

They would provide defense more versatility in their roles as the defense are given some breathing room on how (and what) to defend. I don't necessarily agree that mines and turrets would substitute skill. They would allow for more variety in how players can play this game, open up new roles (ie: farmer) for players to play. If anything, it makes the game more accessible to a wider audience, gives more options to how defense and offense can be played (ie: rely on a talented farmer, defender, and HoF to protect the base and flagstand allowing more players to go offensively, or using a more traditional setup), and as for not improving skill... I don't understand this point. This kind of gameplay only promotes players to improve on their personal/teamwork skill.

It seems to me by giving players extra roles in pubs, that pubs would be more enjoyable.

 

[Astrum]

I'm seriously enraged with you for supporting the implementation of such things into a legendary game such as Legions.

To be legendary I think you need to have more than a dozen players.

Alright, let's talk shop for a bit. Legions has very repetitive gameplay and it's very simplistic. If Legions were an RTS it would have a single building where you produce a single unit type, some of which you leave at home for defense, others which you send en masse to attack the enemy (like the Blood custom map for StarCraft). The gameplay is relatively static when compared to Tribes - and yes that is a proper comparison. Yes I know everyone likes going fast and ZOMG DOWNJAT but that does not make a game. Hell, Call of Duty has more content and dynamic gameplay than Legions, Black Ops even has primitive deployables. When it comes to pubs Legions is even worse. It's just a constant (llama) cap train. And before anyone says, "pubs aren't how the game is meant to be played!", screw you. Tribes had a million people playing at one point. How many of those were competitive players? 1%? If you want to tailor to 20 competitive players in Legions and no regular players, have fun with a dead game and boring competition.

So let's talk about what I'd like to see Legions become. First off, base assets. The holy trinity of generators, sensors, and turrets. Without power the other two are useless, without turrets the safety of the other two and your base in general are compromised, and without sensors, at least what I always thought sensors should do, your turrets are less effective (slower tracking, shorter range, whatever). Of course inventory stations as well, but I couldn't fit those in the trinity otherwise it'd be a quadinity and that isn't a word! I have a lot of opinions on what would constitute a good turret in Legions, but I'll leave that for another time.

So what does this do for the game? Well it removes the sole focus on the flag. Your base is at least as important as your flag. If you can't keep your flag safe you'll probably lose, and if you can't keep your base running, you'll probably lose. It would no longer be a case of, "Is the flag at base? No? Get it back. Yes? We're good" (simplified of course). There would be many other variables to consider. Deployables would mitigate, though not remove, the negative effects of a good base raping.

So yes, I think Legions can be improved by leaps and bounds rather than relying on DOWNJAT as a game mechanic.

 

[SeymourGore]

Yar, while Seymour would want to see base assets, deployables, and whatnot, I'm sure there's other players who hold X-treme's 'less is more' mentality. And that's totally fine, Tribes LT was very popular and I understand the desire for a simpler, player focused game. Perhaps something similar to Tribes LT could be added as a gametype for Legions, read: no deployables, existing maps being modified to better suit this type of gameplay, and no functional base structures.

Also, when Astrum is able to post something in the forums, it always comes out magical.