A Change in PUGs

Ucantry2run

Private Tester
I cry inside everytime I see a new post in Darklord's thread. I've seen a lot of controversy between the members of our community concerning our friendliness to newer players.

This thread is for people to discuss what we need to change to make pugs more friendly and especially fun. I agree, it is fun to win sometimes, but that does not mean it is enjoyable for the other team/ the people who never get picked. You're welcome to copy any arguments that we had in the other thread to here. If enough people speak their mind, then someone will listen. This can also not be done by admins alone, the whole community (who plays pickups regularly, anyway) needs to work together on this. I'll even make sure to keep my eyes opened from now on. I already have a good idea of what we can do, but I want to hear what the community has to say.

1. What can we do to make pugs more player friendly?
2.What would bring about a pug that would be more fun?
3. What are your comments on the attitude of the admins and captains during the player picking process? What can be changed?
4. Feel free to add any other comments to the discussion regarding pugs, player-friendliness and sportsmanship.

I expect to see at least a few discussions in this thread, so we know where to start and what to work for. Spartan.

Update:

Alright, I read over the thread again and found some stuff needing to be improved/added/fixed:

1. The fact that many people are not picked for multiple games at a time. For people who are not picked one round, they should have a reserved spot in the next game, no matter how many good people there are in the channel.

2. Our attitude towards newer players. I've seen it improve somewhat over the past week or so, but we can all use some improvement. Cruelty to new players is unacceptable.

3. Correcting team balance. If you see a team overly stacked, make necessary trades to try and even the teams as much as possible. Or go with my idea and say that the team being stacked against wins if they get one point.

4. A slightly tweaked captain system. Captains should cooperate rather than picking teams to win. Yeah, you can pick good players, but try to get new players into the mix, too. (At least two? Depending on how many good players/actual players in the channel there are)

5. Players who show up late to a pickup game while the players are still being picked need to wait until the next game.

Pickup games are a competitive environment, like Homie said. However, some of our community members want to learn and improve in hopes of playing as the same level as us some day. Others just want to have some fun playing the game. Why deny newer members this chance?

The points listed above aren't official rules without an agreement from the community. I would like to see these points recognized and used during pickup games.

Of course, there are things that can be added, removed, or editted. If you have something else to add, or if you think these points can be improved, let me know.
 

Jordahan

World Leader of The 21st Century
This thread is for people to discuss what we need to change to make pugs more friendly and especially fun.

I expect to see at least a few discussions in this thread, so we know where to start and what to work for. Spartan.

I love you so much right now.
 

Gheist

King of all Goblins
I find the general emphasis on winning a bit sad. Sure, winning is fun, but it seems like (from personal experience, this thread, or even the latest Legions Live show) picking a winning team is way more important over there in the US than picking fair/balanced/"funforeveryone" teams. Additionally, in my opinion, everyone should be able to play at least once. It should never happen that a "worse" or newer player is hanging around for over one hour (hell, I've heard of people that waited even longer before they dropped) without even playing one game, because some "better"/more established players don't want to lose, ever.

So, long story short, two additions for the "Captaining 101": Get everyone to play, not the same 14 people round after round after round (even if those 14 are clearly better). Make sure (in coordination with the other captain) that the teams are kinda even, and that everyone can have fun.
Pretty much sums up my stance on this. Also, this comes from someone who's just back from a 2-3 month long inactivity period, AND a euro, so take it as what it is, not more. Euro PUGs, when they're happening, usually suffer less under the points that I've mentioned above.
 

moronval

Private Tester
US pugs: Teams almost always are fair (Although players on one team or another might be playing poorly, resulting in an uneven match but that's not something you can just think of and consider when picking) and "the same 14 people" aren't picked round after round unless there's, you know, no one else in the channel to pick.

And then the soviet union overtook the west.
 

57thRomance

Member
From what I can remember, if I ever made a mistake or did something the captain thought was dumb, he wouldn't scold me or hold me accountable to it. He would let me know what I did wrong and give a better solution to the scenario so I could do a better job of fixing a problem or making the right decisions ingame. To the captains: Don't assume your teammates know everything. Furthermore, don't scold them for doing something you wouldn't do. Maybe it might turn out better than you expected. To the players: don't feel useless or dumb. Learn from each match, and you'll get better at the game ;)
 

Skepsis

Member
Ok, What you can do to make pugs more Player friendly is to not rage at a new Player when He/She is doing bad. Give advice and Tips so that the Player can learn from his/her mistake(s). What would make a Fun Pug is Fair Teams, Teamwork, Communication, and Intensity toward the Pug and the Gameplay. For Pug Captains please dont pick the same set of Skilled People every game. Give everyone a chance to play and have fun, Then again...Some Captains have there reputation of not Losing I understand why you would choose skilled Players all day long. What kills Pick ups are the Unfair Teams. Its only fun for the winning team and Immensely Boring for the Losing team. That is why We fight to keep Pug's going and to do that is to keep fair Teams and keep the PUG Fun. How can a Pick-Up game be fun? It can be fun by Having Equal Scores like 9 - 9 last cap wins, Communication and great clutches made by Players. Show new Players why Pugs are fun and eventually Pick ups will happen more often.

I Hope Pick Up Games change or The Community will fall apart slowly.
;)
 
I was just going to suggest someone to make this thread in DL's topic. Ty Ucan.<3

As a frequent captain and PUG channel admin, I'll read all posts here and will use your input to try to improve the current state of PUGs.

One suggestion I'll make to myself and everyone else is to choose two captains of similar skill level. Many unfair games happen when the two captains aren't comparable in skill, especially when the better player gets first pick. One solution would be to give the lesser skilled player the first pick.

Another one will be when you can clearly see one team to have a major advantage, try to make it more fair by possibly trading players repicking.
 

Frost

Member
I'm pretty much with Gheist on this one. To make PUGs better or to increase the popularity would have to start with reaching down to the new(er) players, and the middle class as well. I've stopped with PUGs since I'm in the "middle class" or part of the mediocre range and playing once per hour doesn't really help me improve at all, nor is it fun since by then most people have gone or everyone's tired.

The people that get picked have every right to be picked, they've either worked hard or they have a natural touch for the game but it's just not fun for anyone else really. For the picking process, captains pick to win, not to have fun or to be balanced, at least not in 90% of the cases I see.

Most games have relatively good sportsmanship, few don't but that isn't much of a problem. Overall though, I'd say the chance of being picked if you aren't "really good" or "well known and decently good" is slim to none. For a solution I'd say those that are there at the time the picking process starts should be picked first, not the "good" player who comes in for the last pick or who just got pulled out of another channel. Also, the people that played the last game should be picked last, so no one sits out two games in a row.

-Frost
 

Unknown

Private Tester
It's really annoying when people get so stressed out over close games, when they are definitely the most fun (imo). Theres definitely quite a few people out there who seem to treat being down by 1 or 2 points (or even tied!) the way others would if they got rolled. (No one else cares about your egos or win record anyway!)

Another thing I find frustrating is when the teams are blatantly unfair, and a repick or something is considered, then the "lets just play it out, the teams are not that bad" happens, and the game takes about 5 - 10 minutes and is no fun for the losing team.

When I captain, I definitely do it competitively, but I try to pick the team that I will have the most fun with so that just in case I lose I am still having fun with people I like.
 
Ok, What you can do to make pugs more Player friendly is to not rage at a new Player when He/She is doing bad. Give advice and Tips so that the Player can learn from his/her mistake(s). What would make a Fun Pug is Fair Teams, Teamwork, Communication, and Intensity toward the Pug and the Gameplay. For Pug Captains please dont pick the same set of Skilled People every game. Give everyone a chance to play and have fun, Then again...Some Captains have there reputation of not Losing I understand why you would choose skilled Players all day long. What kills Pick ups are the Unfair Teams. Its only fun for the winning team and Immensely Boring for the Losing team. That is why We fight to keep Pug's going and to do that is to keep fair Teams and keep the PUG Fun. How can a Pick-Up game be fun? It can be fun by Having Equal Scores like 9 - 9 last cap wins, Communication and great clutches made by Players. Show new Players why Pugs are fun and eventually Pick ups will happen more often.

I Hope Pick Up Games change or The Community will fall apart slowly.
;)

As humans, we do tend to lose control of our feelings and rage sometimes. It's even worse when it's directed at a player. I don't think this will ever change, as everyone makes mistakes, but as fellow players on the team where one person might be getting raged at, we need to point out to the rager that their actions could possibly be hurting the game (and player) more than fixing it.

As a captain, we choose the same set of people normally because they're all we have to pick from. Lol. When there are new people in the channel, I believe we do a pretty decent job of giving them a chance to play. If people aren't getting playtime, as again, as fellow players we need to point this out to the captains so they can get these people into games.

Generally, we do have fair games. But, there are bad games that happen. It's sometimes hard to eliminate these from happening. Darklord's Captaining 101 thread is aiming to help do just this.
 

Ucantry2run

Private Tester
So do you think reserving a couple of spots for newer/middle class players could be done as one of the solutions? And possibly up the player count in a pug if the numbers are available...

I've seen sometimes where there's enough for a 10v10, but we choose an 8v8 because we barely know who's left in the channel.
 
I find the general emphasis on winning a bit sad. Sure, winning is fun, but it seems like (from personal experience, this thread, or even the latest Legions Live show) picking a winning team is way more important over there in the US than picking fair/balanced/"funforeveryone" teams. Additionally, in my opinion, everyone should be able to play at least once. It should never happen that a "worse" or newer player is hanging around for over one hour (hell, I've heard of people that waited even longer before they dropped) without even playing one game, because some "better"/more established players don't want to lose, ever.

So, long story short, two additions for the "Captaining 101": Get everyone to play, not the same 14 people round after round after round (even if those 14 are clearly better). Make sure (in coordination with the other captain) that the teams are kinda even, and that everyone can have fun.

The emphasis on winning is a bit exaggerated. Though everyone likes winning (it's generally more fun), it really isn't as what it seems in the DL thread, in my opinion.

90% of the time, we do get newer players into games (as long as they stay in the server). We rotate players in and out of games. One thing we can improve on, however, is getting players who do play every game to give up their spots more often for these players. Another problem is people very often leave the server after not getting picked the first game. Maybe there was a time they missed getting into two games in a row and they give up trying. I've been personally apologizing to the people who don't get picked and telling them to stay for the next game when I captain. I think we should push this onto the rest of the people who captain, and even further, getting these players who don't get in the first game to put something next to their names so we remember come next game. Maybe something like "AFireInAsa (DNP)" for did not play the first game.
 

Ucantry2run

Private Tester
Yeah, I have to admit myself that I do have winning in mind sometimes. But now that all of this has been brought into the light, we could really make a push to make pugs more fun. The first step is getting past denial, right?
 
So do you think reserving a couple of spots for newer/middle class players could be done as one of the solutions? And possibly up the player count in a pug if the numbers are available...

I've seen sometimes where there's enough for a 10v10, but we choose an 8v8 because we barely know who's left in the channel.

This is one of the improvements we already made come Legions: Overdrive. Back on IA, we'd pick teams of 7 and that was it. Nowadays, that's pretty much changed. I don't think I ever see 7v7s anymore, 8v8s are the new norm, 9v9s and 10v10s are also very popular. But, we can always improve upon what we're doing more since there definitely are times we could add another two or more players, like how we got everyone who wanted to play to play in the game that's going on right now.



It was orginally a Frostbyte game that was going to be played 8v8, but the two captains (Envy and Skepsis) agreed to change it to Zen to get more players in. It's a beautiful thing, isn't it. :cool:

I would also like to suggest to anyone that has played PUGs in the past and have not had a good experience to give them another shot. Things have really gotten better since the IA days, and even the earlier days of L:O.

I'm pretty much with Gheist on this one. To make PUGs better or to increase the popularity would have to start with reaching down to the new(er) players, and the middle class as well. I've stopped with PUGs since I'm in the "middle class" or part of the mediocre range and playing once per hour doesn't really help me improve at all, nor is it fun since by then most people have gone or everyone's tired.

I totally disagree with your first statement (about yourself being a middleclass player) and I'm sad that that's the reason you stopped playing. I also disagree that that won't let you improve. I believe I see people improve every PUG. You should really come back and join us for more fun! You're a great guy to play with.
 

Outlawl

Macabre
Jeez, Ucan already beat me to making this thread!

Anyways, in lieu of the recent discussions about pickups going on, it's become obvious that we need to change up the way pickups are done. A couple months back, Seymour, Bugspray and I started on a project to reform the way PUGs are conducted. However, shortly after we started building this new system, we realized we didn't have the personnel we needed to successfully run this project, thus it stalled and was put on indefinite hold.

With recent interest in re-doing the pug system, it seems that the project may be able to be implemented after all!

Heres the link where you can look at the outline we drew up: http://view.samurajdata.se/rsc/9433537c/

It's a rough, rough, rough draft though, don't yell at us too much!

Any suggestions/criticisms are more than welcome!

Don't worry about the staffing right now though guys. Once we have the system set up we'll start talking about who we're going to promote.
 
Jeez, Ucan already beat me to making this thread!

Anyways, in lieu of the recent discussions about pickups going on, it's become obvious that we need to change up the way pickups are done. A couple months back, Seymour, Bugspray and I started on a project to reform the way PUGs are conducted. However, shortly after we started building this new system, we realized we didn't have the personnel we needed to successfully run this project, thus it stalled and was put on indefinite hold.

With recent interest in re-doing the pug system, it seems that the project may be able to be implemented after all!

Heres the link where you can look at the outline we drew up: http://view.samurajdata.se/rsc/9433537c/

It's a rough, rough, rough draft though, don't yell at us too much!

Any suggestions/criticisms are more than welcome!

Don't worry about the staffing right now though guys. Once we have the system set up we'll start talking about who we're going to promote.

Personally, I think it's too much for people to do just to get involved in PUGs. They happen almost daily as it is and that'd require a lot of (perhaps unnecessary) work to be put into throwing these games. I think if we promote an anti-elitism sort of attitude, it might do a lot of justice. People need to speak out when they disapprove things rather than quit them all together.
 

SeymourGore

Flatulent Cherub
One thing that I'd like to put on the record is this: it was Outlawl who made the name "Operation FRIENDS".

And, yar, it was a very rough draft. Personally, I'd like to have proper admin controls, a 'tournament' mode, and dedicated 'tournament mode' servers listed on the server list (with a password protected server and a open server). A tournament mode is just a pipedream of Seymour's, so don't take this as an announcement or anything.
 
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