Clearing The Only Limitation To Character Movement Physics.

Mahidhar

Member
Apart from the fact that Mahidhar rages at everyone who opposes this idea, I do think it has great potential and validity. Great idea Mahidhar (please don't kill me)
Oh no, I'm actually quite practical when it comes to breaking down on ideas, tactics and strategies for the game. If anyone can provide valid arguments, like limitations to the idea or how it may negatively affect the game, I will be more than happy to oblige, and will try to find solutions to those problems.

But commenting that it's not worth the developers' time, for this idea, to be atleast looked at, that, I simply detest. Anyway, thanks for your feedback.

The alt key seems a bit tricky to press when you have your pointing and ring finger on the A and D keys.

You may select any key you like, to be the Sky-Axis button. I mentioned Alt, just as an example.
 

Volt Cruelerz

Legions Developer
I'm interested in the potential for banking... I personally don't think that with just a keyboard you'd be able to properly accomplish this sort of thing... I mean, if someone could roll 80 degrees to the right while in mid air and upjet, you're going to fly off to the right. Consider that when you jet up, you must overcome gravity. If you sidejet (for lack of a better term, you are going to rapidly change direction. Yes, you still have your previous momentum, but you can get rid of it relatively easily.

Beyond that, you'll be able to forejet and backjet if you roll onto your stomach or back. In either case, you are going to fly up and down hills. If you can figure out the proper angles, you'll be getting huge speed buffs right off the bat. No longer will your hovering have to accommodate you when going downhill. You can simply roll backward and slide down on your back. This means that jetting downward is going to cause you to fly much much faster than before.

I can't say one way or the other as far as my interest goes.. On the one hand, this will open up lots of new possibilities, but on the other, ugh... There are getting to be so many things already, I'd probably never use this feature. I wouldn't ever get precise enough with it to be able to use it practically. The experts on the other hand, you can bet will master this. This will boost the speed of every route and will enable things that were not possible before. Walls will become floors. Hills will become free fall. I'm just afraid of what this could do to balance.
 

Armageddon

Teapot
27290_Barrel_Roll.jpg
 

Mahidhar

Member
I'm interested in the potential for banking... I personally don't think that with just a keyboard you'd be able to properly accomplish this sort of thing... I mean, if someone could roll 80 degrees to the right while in mid air and upjet, you're going to fly off to the right. Consider that when you jet up, you must overcome gravity. If you sidejet (for lack of a better term, you are going to rapidly change direction. Yes, you still have your previous momentum, but you can get rid of it relatively easily.

Beyond that, you'll be able to forejet and backjet if you roll onto your stomach or back. In either case, you are going to fly up and down hills. If you can figure out the proper angles, you'll be getting huge speed buffs right off the bat. No longer will your hovering have to accommodate you when going downhill. You can simply roll backward and slide down on your back. This means that jetting downward is going to cause you to fly much much faster than before.

I can't say one way or the other as far as my interest goes.. On the one hand, this will open up lots of new possibilities, but on the other, ugh... There are getting to be so many things already, I'd probably never use this feature. I wouldn't ever get precise enough with it to be able to use it practically. The experts on the other hand, you can bet will master this. This will boost the speed of every route and will enable things that were not possible before. Walls will become floors. Hills will become free fall. I'm just afraid of what this could do to balance.

You have to remember, we're talking theory here, where practical testing should be the actual base of analysis. I agree with you, I am also not certain how this will affect the balance of the game. Until we can get our hands(or the developers') on this feature, for some testing, we may never know it's potential.
 

Volt Cruelerz

Legions Developer
As far as the side overdrive, I'd say just have the computer auto-rotate you to be flat with it if you hit OD while also pressing Skalts (result of combining sky axis and alt).
 
Just a few Points.
1. Enhanced Aim: The first and the most basic enhancement, one will notice in Legions, while using Sky-Axis is, the ability to consistently aim at targets. In all our chasing days, we've found ourselves to be chasing the enemy flag carrier, and gaining more speed than he has. We would then be forced to slow down, and try to match his pace, as we just want to stay on his back, and finish him off. There would also be scenarios, where the enemy Capper is floating above us, and we can't aim perfectly, because of the limitation of the vertical free look. Therefore, when you apply the Sky-Axis, you will be able to tilt backwards(all the way, if you want to), without the vertical limit and aim consistently. Meaning, if you turn your head backwards vertically, to a 45 degree angle, you will gain an extra 45 degree aiming angle to the top.

Another, and probably a better example would be, when the enemy Capper is taking the same route as you, and is approaching you. There is a chance that, he will pass you, by floating above you. Therefore, by using the Sky-Axis, you'll be able to turn quite a lot, while still being able to shoot at him consistently.
Firstly, I have to say, I think this would just make things more confusing, you see, while you might be able to get those extra shots in during those moments, you've got to add on the time spent re-angling yourself, then add on the fact that You are also moving and have to be able to switch back to watching where you are going immediately afterwards. in terms of new players, it would make the learning curve steeper than it already is. In terms of experienced players, frankly, is the current system That bad? I mean, All it takes is a slight sideways twitch of the hand when passing the vertical view to keep tracking them, and it's very rare for them to be directly above you anyway, so chances are most of your tracking will be with a side-to-side mouse movement anyway. In this case, I personally would much rather stay at my normal angle and be able to take a few potshots then continue on my way, without crashing into the nearest hill.
That is why, it is effective for any player to make a quick 180 degree turn, shoot a rocket and turn back.
Here, by applying Sky-Axis, the player may shift the axis of the character, 45 degrees forward, therefore gaining an extra 45 degree aiming angle at his feet(note: it doesn't have to be exactly 45 degrees, as it is just an example, although the angle may be used to obtain the optimal balance between height and speed). He may then completely rid himself off of forward splash effect.
In this case it may be a useful thing, although I have to say, not one relevant to me. If you happen to have high ping, you can actually just aim down like the old days. Also, is the 180 degree turn That hard?
Such as; the vertical Overdrive limit, where when a Raider tries to Overdrive, higher than the usual 30 degree angle(maybe even 45, I'm not sure), the Overdrive simply breaks. You may remove the angular limit, and replace it with a time limit. Something similar to the amount of time given, when the player overdrives while pointing upwards. The player would then have time to perform, and complete such maneuvers.
You'll find it's not actually an angle limit, but an angular momentum limit. By pointing upwards you go against gravity, and quickly lose speed until below the 88 threshold. The same occurs for fast turns. In addition, there is a short (2 sec I think) period at the beginning of an OD, where such a limit does not exist, hence why we can maneuver the way we do at the start of the OD.
Another adjustment which could prove to be interesting is to let walls be acknowledged as Overdrive initiators, just as any other horizontal surface. This would not make it possible, for the character to simply Overdrive off the wall without using the Sky-Axis. So, for him to do that, the player, before his character hits the wall, must shift his axis in such a way, that the character's feet will touch the wall, when collided, and then he may activate Overdrive. I believe this will give way, to various new and interesting methods of Overdrive Capping(may prove to be useful to Cappers, when defensive deployments are introduced).
This i do find interesting, but I suspect would make some things Too easy on the cappers, as at least currently, the defenders can know where the main "starting surfaces" are, whereas with this the cappers could avoid ever touching the ground (except for at the flag of course) and could make things a bit difficult.
3. Enhanced Flight: By now, your mind should have grasped the basic idea of this ability, and if you're guessing it, this is basically the normal skiing, but with the use of Sky-Axis. Sky-Axis will now allow you, to actually dive into a slope, rather than just down jet. Therefore, with the help of the normal movement keys, this will allow you total freedom of flight, where your Up Jet and Down Jet, constantly switch places. This is all in theory, but this should reduce, all that long range parabolic, bunny hops, and let you move in directions without too much speed loss. More like Overdrive maneuverability, but with a much larger required curve, for speed maintainability.
I do have to say, all this would do is allow thrusting at points in-between up-upforwards, down-downforwards, and the same for back. Add in 360 deg of lateral rotation (i.e. what we have at present), and that's already a great deal of control. Adding a little more would be a very insignificant difference, particularly considering, most of the energy usage is more to do with inertia. Yes, if you're intending on going in one of the intermediate angles it would be slightly more efficient than alternating between the two closest angles, but considering the coding required, not to mention the additional learning required on how to use it, I'm not sure it's worth it.

Edit: Oh and yes, I do know a little about programming.
 

Mahidhar

Member
Just a few Points.

Firstly, I have to say, I think this would just make things more confusing, you see, while you might be able to get those extra shots in during those moments, you've got to add on the time spent re-angling yourself, then add on the fact that You are also moving and have to be able to switch back to watching where you are going immediately afterwards. in terms of new players, it would make the learning curve steeper than it already is. In terms of experienced players, frankly, is the current system That bad? I mean, All it takes is a slight sideways twitch of the hand when passing the vertical view to keep tracking them, and it's very rare for them to be directly above you anyway, so chances are most of your tracking will be with a side-to-side mouse movement anyway. In this case, I personally would much rather stay at my normal angle and be able to take a few potshots then continue on my way, without crashing into the nearest hill.

If you have read the part, where I explained how this can be made to work without too much hassle, you'll see something about how double-tapping the Sky-Axis button will re-align you back to your normal position.

You'll find it's not actually an angle limit, but an angular momentum limit. By pointing upwards you go against gravity, and quickly lose speed until below the 88 threshold. The same occurs for fast turns. In addition, there is a short (2 sec I think) period at the beginning of an OD, where such a limit does not exist, hence why we can maneuver the way we do at the start of the OD.

I do not understand. What I meant by angle limit is that, when you try and OD off of a wall, which has it's angle closer to 90 degrees, it doesn't let you. You simply hit and fall. I am asking, that we remove this limit, but only while in Sky-Axis mode, and only when the Character feet are aligned to touch the surface(three conditions, including the speed requirement).

This i do find interesting, but I suspect would make some things Too easy on the cappers, as at least currently, the defenders can know where the main "starting surfaces" are, whereas with this the cappers could avoid ever touching the ground (except for at the flag of course) and could make things a bit difficult.

I partly agree with this. But since, we're going to get all these turrets and various deployables, it's going to be a lot harder for Cappers to do their job. Therefore, this will work as a small treat for them, to make some quick moves. This is also to reduce the new "trend" of high speed long route capping, and open up more ideas for OD capping.

I do have to say, all this would do is allow thrusting at points in-between up-upforwards, down-downforwards, and the same for back. Add in 360 deg of lateral rotation (i.e. what we have at present), and that's already a great deal of control. Adding a little more would be a very insignificant difference, particularly considering, most of the energy usage is more to do with inertia. Yes, if you're intending on going in one of the intermediate angles it would be slightly more efficient than alternating between the two closest angles, but considering the coding required, not to mention the additional learning required on how to use it, I'm not sure it's worth it.

Edit: Oh and yes, I do know a little about programming.

As I said in my previous post to someone else, the effectiveness of this ability cannot be judged in theory, we need a ground to test this on. As for your "That Hard?" and "That Bad?" posts. Most of my ideas lean towards having choices in-game, that's my definition of depth. Worth of a game element, comes later.
 

SeymourGore

Flatulent Cherub
Seymour's not a smart enough man to fully understand these posts, but it does remind of a 'Trick' system. Hold down the 'Trick' button to perform rotations to your player model, allowing certain 'Trick' shots or 'Trick' moves (ie: somersault, 360' spin, etc). That would be kinda cool.

And it would be quite enjoyable to see someone mess up their trick and land on their head, Hohohohoho!
 

Mahidhar

Member
This would be the "next level" to learn, after the normal movement controls are in the newcomer's grip. Since, all this works only when pressing a button, this wouldn't force anything onto them. Trying to learn the current control mechanics, of the basic movement is what's really hard. Therefore, this next step, would be more like an upgrade/option.
 

Volt Cruelerz

Legions Developer
Okay, so that's a second learning curve. The problem is, there are no skill categories that prevent the best from playing with complete noobs. This is going to cause people to further punch noobs into the ground. So, not only can they not ski, they are getting pounded by people who know how to ski, can predict their movement, AND now perform maneuvers impossible to noobs.

Yes, it is a secondary learning curve... For us. We already know the game. For us, it would be a matter of changing a little here and there to allow for our use. That would not be so for an incoming player. They would be faced with something else and while you may say that it's only an option, it will steepen the learning curve from their perspective, driving off people.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be freaking awesome to OD off a wall, I'm just saying that it will shift the balance further in the favor of the experts.
 

Mahidhar

Member
Newcomers won't stay newcomers forever. And honestly, the learning curve in any game becomes steeper, as more content/depth is added to the game. It is simply inevitable. Therefore, instead of worrying about how steep the learning curve will be, we should focus on the methods to effectively train newcomers, and the best way to do that, is by providing training areas, and simulations.
 

WildFire

Warrior of Linux
Newcomers won't stay newcomers forever. And honestly, the learning curve in any game becomes steeper, as more content/depth is added to the game. It is simply inevitable. Therefore, instead of worrying about how steep the learning curve will be, we should focus on the methods to effectively train newcomers, and the best way to do that, is by providing training areas, and simulations.

Yes, you can have this, but that doesn't completely solve the problem. People pick up the game faster than others, some players will automatically be better etc. I myself took ages to pick the game up nearly two years ago, but practice makes perfect and I kept playing the game for what it is, and any system like the one you have described would have put me off massively because of how hard it would have been.
 

Mahidhar

Member
I'm not here to solve the problem of the learning curve, neither is my concept. That is totally up to the developers, how they would approach it. All elements already present, and the ones, about to be added, will make the game more complex, deep and hard. It's all about how it's implemented.
 
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