Ye Olde Melee/Close Range Thread

[WildFire]

5. Addendum: Flamethrower. It's not as cool or original as the other stuff here, but it's FIRE. Nuff said.

I agree to this weapon. Get it in public test servers asap!

 

[Libra]

The funny thing is, Volt Cruelerz has never seen melee weapons in game, he's just referring to one of the developer's statements. In short, if you feel like arguing with him, do it, but do it based on actual points, not based on his PT status.

not trying to start an argument, private testers and devs alike have said it is over powered and useless, i just want to have a crack at it before they throw it out the window

SN: I'm not trying to start an argument

 

[Siantlark]

not trying to start an argument, private testers and devs alike have said it is over powered and useless, i just want to have a crack at it before they throw it out the window

SN: I'm not trying to start an argument

Plasma might as well be a close range weapon. If you can aim it properly you can kill someone pretty fast.

 

[Mhi200]

I agree that a shotgun would be useless, and that a typical melee weapon would not fit well in a game like this.

I thought it was decided it was overpowered, not useless.

 

[Libra]

idc for shotguns what i want to see is swords knives and daggers please

 

[Volt Cruelerz]

I agree that a shotgun would be useless, and that a typical melee weapon would not fit well in a game like this.

However, there are a few other things that my drunken mind can spew.

1. Aggressor Shield. Did any of you play the Independence War games? This was a "grinding" forcefield that you could trigger on your spaceship, that made your ship do a huge amount of ramming damage, while minimizing the damage the collision did your own ship (it did not protect against weapons.) (I-War 2 had an automatic variant that triggered right before a collision.) Replacing one of the held weapons with something like this (and perhaps having it triggered by overdrive) seems like a good fit for this game.

2. Sticky bombs. Simply put, a launched or thrown grenade with a small amount of splash damage that sticks to wherever it lands, including enemy players. Making them detonatable would expand their usability. Making a "boost" variant of this could also be cool.

3. On the same ilk, a disintigrator knife. Make it the sole weapon (or perhaps alongside CG/Plasma only) on an Outrider or perhaps an even lighter class. Point-blank, stab, run, 3 seconds later, insta-kill. It would be difficult to use and the user would be disadvantaged at range. This might be a good weapon for a HOF though.

4. Disabling weapons. This could be applied to the stickybomb or knife idea. Hit them with this, and an enemy's suit shuts down for a few seconds (this could vary based on the class.)

5. Addendum: Flamethrower. It's not as cool or original as the other stuff here, but it's FIRE. Nuff said.

1. Overdrive already kind of does this. If you could activate this while standing still, then it's just pointless because HoF's would be more or less indestructible. To counter, let's say that you only put it on OR. Okay, but then you'll just end up with LoF (with more or less indestructible barrier in front of him).

2. I like this, though I don't want manual detonation. A sticky cluster on the other hand... That could be fun... Fire a single cluster shot that explodes into a volley of stickies that detonate after a second or two... Might be fun..

3. Straight up melee weapons are virtually impossible to integrate. There are simply so few times in which a player is actually that close (see previous post) that this will be useless the vast majority of the time, and if you have nothing else as a main weapon on this loadout, then why on earth would people use it? And if it insta-kills a target, then why would a heavy bother using anything else if they learn to time it right. If you can run someone through all day long, then why the heck would you both with other weapons?

4. Disabling for a few seconds is a bad idea. I have nothing against energy drains, but flat out disabling is a death sentence. A single hit by a weapon with this is going to mean you'll die soon enough if your opponent is competent.

5. Flamethrowers... I have always loved these weapons, but... would they actually work? I mean, you're traveling at hundreds of meters per second... First off, you could easily outrun your own fireballs. Second, you have the issue of logic. If you are going that fast, how are you going to get anything to burn? The air itself would cause it to cool below the ignition point...

I once came up with a melee weapon which I personally believe is the closest anyone's come to a functional melee weapon for gameplay. It consisted of more or less a lightsaber mounted on each forearm. The aiming itself would be done by computer. At high speeds, you would slash outwards (because let's face it, at these speeds, you would only ever be trying to lance someone) whereas at low speeds, it would be a [insanely unlikely] duel scenario. At these speeds it would slash diagonally and after a few successive attacks would stab. The most important part of this weapon idea was that it would also function as a medium range weapon. The idea was that if you had the ability to contain plasma in blades on your wrists, why not turn this into a normal ranged weapon. You'd then have the ability to fire thin but long plasma bolts at your target (this is actually a modification from my original idea) that would deal at least some ranged damage. The ultimate problem I ended up with was how do you tell the computer to melee instead of fire or fire instead of melee? You can have a dedicated button, but then why not have melee as a standard feature. How on earth would a computer know if you are trying to fire? Have it scan to see if there is someone within melee range? What if you aren't aiming for them? What if someone sneaks up behind you and you are trying to shoot the flag carrier once so you can melee them when they do finally arrive?

I just saw no way to resolve this. The problem with melee weapons is that if they will be used in one position alone. One hit strikes by HoF's. If they are instagibs, then a good HoF would be unstoppable (as would a capper). If not, they won't be used for their lack of an ability to change someone's course until the very last second. There's more reasoning behind this, but I assure you, getting a melee weapon in this game should not be a priority whatsoever. You don't need them, nor will they improve gameplay. They will just cause headaches.

 

[Metreon]

1. Overdrive already kind of does this. If you could activate this while standing still, then it's just pointless because HoF's would be more or less indestructible. To counter, let's say that you only put it on OR. Okay, but then you'll just end up with LoF (with more or less indestructible barrier in front of him).

The Aggressor shield, (I'll call it a ramming field henceforth for clarity) in this context, would only be active while overdrive is active, and this subject to the same activation restrictions. Furthermore, like the I-War games, it would not protect the user against damage done by weapon fire or the health drain of overdrive- only against collision damage (running into a wall or another player) while dealing a lot of damage to the target. A outrider could kill a raider, and a raider could severely damage a Sent. You do make a good point there about HoFs, so perhaps making it only equippable to riders and outriders would be wise, since they lack instant OD and would therefore require a lot of speed.

2. I like this, though I don't want manual detonation. A sticky cluster on the other hand... That could be fun... Fire a single cluster shot that explodes into a volley of stickies that detonate after a second or two... Might be fun..

The sticky cluster might make a good sent weapon. The detonation function might make them usable as mines, but I do agree they would be best as a timed-fuse-type weapon. I do agree that it would be a damned fun weapon, though if it's very damaging as a handgrenade limiting the ammo to, say, 3 of 'em might be good.

3. Straight up melee weapons are virtually impossible to integrate. There are simply so few times in which a player is actually that close (see previous post) that this will be useless the vast majority of the time, and if you have nothing else as a main weapon on this loadout, then why on earth would people use it? And if it insta-kills a target, then why would a heavy bother using anything else if they learn to time it right. If you can run someone through all day long, then why the heck would you both with other weapons?

It would really be only useful if there were a smaller/faster/weaker class than the outrider, and thinking now, it would essentially be an OP stickybomb. Perhaps having it in the same category as handgrenades, and only equipping one instead, and making it usable at arm's length instead of point-blank. Still impractical, but it might have creative uses.

4. Disabling for a few seconds is a bad idea. I have nothing against energy drains, but flat out disabling is a death sentence. A single hit by a weapon with this is going to mean you'll die soon enough if your opponent is competent.

An excellent point. It would have to be no more than a second if used for full disabling, and limited in ammo as well. If a longer effect duration is pursued, perhaps an effect like the PPC from Mechwarrior (joggles/scrambles HUD and reticle, maybe drains energy, maybe even slowing acceleration for a few seconds.)

Another possible idea would be use as a mass-shadow sticky thing, where for a given time, an affected enemy would weigh more, restricting jumping. (Outrider with raider weight, raider with near-Sent weight, Sent with even heavier weight.)

5. Flamethrowers... I have always loved these weapons, but... would they actually work? I mean, you're traveling at hundreds of meters per second... First off, you could easily outrun your own fireballs. Second, you have the issue of logic. If you are going that fast, how are you going to get anything to burn? The air itself would cause it to cool below the ignition point...

You make some excellent points here. Here, I imagine it as an incendiary weapon that sets targets on fire. It would be pretty useless at high speed unless aiming backwards. The effect I was thinking would be to set a target on fire (in a dueling situation) which would result in a slow health drain unless the fire was put out (I propose that would happen if a flaming target hit a certain speed.) Furthermore, someone with this weapon using it while flying forwards too fast could set themselves afire (a good nerf, methinks, and one that would require a bit of skill to use effectively.) A flaming mark running into another could also set that other one afire. It's more of a fun weapon than a useful one, but still.

I once came up with a melee weapon which I personally believe is the closest anyone's come to a functional melee weapon for gameplay. It consisted of more or less a lightsaber mounted on each forearm. The aiming itself would be done by computer. At high speeds, you would slash outwards (because let's face it, at these speeds, you would only ever be trying to lance someone) whereas at low speeds, it would be a [insanely unlikely] duel scenario. At these speeds it would slash diagonally and after a few successive attacks would stab. The most important part of this weapon idea was that it would also function as a medium range weapon. The idea was that if you had the ability to contain plasma in blades on your wrists, why not turn this into a normal ranged weapon. You'd then have the ability to fire thin but long plasma bolts at your target (this is actually a modification from my original idea) that would deal at least some ranged damage. The ultimate problem I ended up with was how do you tell the computer to melee instead of fire or fire instead of melee? You can have a dedicated button, but then why not have melee as a standard feature. How on earth would a computer know if you are trying to fire? Have it scan to see if there is someone within melee range? What if you aren't aiming for them? What if someone sneaks up behind you and you are trying to shoot the flag carrier once so you can melee them when they do finally arrive?

I just saw no way to resolve this. The problem with melee weapons is that if they will be used in one position alone. One hit strikes by HoF's. If they are instagibs, then a good HoF would be unstoppable (as would a capper). If not, they won't be used for their lack of an ability to change someone's course until the very last second. There's more reasoning behind this, but I assure you, getting a melee weapon in this game should not be a priority whatsoever. You don't need them, nor will they improve gameplay. They will just cause headaches.

That's why none of these try to be "true" melee weapons- all of them are expendables that are thrown at, shot at, or attached to a target (with the exception of the ramming shield, which is a kamikaze weapon.) As cool as it would be to have melee weapons, it would be rather difficult in a game like this. It may be cool to have a bash attack usable only when one is totally out of ammo, but that's the only place I see for a true melee-type thingamajig- and OPing them would indeed make them very susceptible to HoF abuse.

 

[Volt Cruelerz]

The Aggressor shield, (I'll call it a ramming field henceforth for clarity) in this context, would only be active while overdrive is active, and this subject to the same activation restrictions. Furthermore, like the I-War games, it would not protect the user against damage done by weapon fire or the health drain of overdrive- only against collision damage (running into a wall or another player) while dealing a lot of damage to the target. A outrider could kill a raider, and a raider could severely damage a Sent. You do make a good point there about HoFs, so perhaps making it only equippable to riders and outriders would be wise, since they lack instant OD and would therefore require a lot of speed.

The sticky cluster might make a good sent weapon. The detonation function might make them usable as mines, but I do agree they would be best as a timed-fuse-type weapon. I do agree that it would be a damned fun weapon, though if it's very damaging as a handgrenade limiting the ammo to, say, 3 of 'em might be good.

It would really be only useful if there were a smaller/faster/weaker class than the outrider, and thinking now, it would essentially be an OP stickybomb. Perhaps having it in the same category as handgrenades, and only equipping one instead, and making it usable at arm's length instead of point-blank. Still impractical, but it might have creative uses.

An excellent point. It would have to be no more than a second if used for full disabling, and limited in ammo as well. If a longer effect duration is pursued, perhaps an effect like the PPC from Mechwarrior (joggles/scrambles HUD and reticle, maybe drains energy, maybe even slowing acceleration for a few seconds.)

Another possible idea would be use as a mass-shadow sticky thing, where for a given time, an affected enemy would weigh more, restricting jumping. (Outrider with raider weight, raider with near-Sent weight, Sent with even heavier weight.)

You make some excellent points here. Here, I imagine it as an incendiary weapon that sets targets on fire. It would be pretty useless at high speed unless aiming backwards. The effect I was thinking would be to set a target on fire (in a dueling situation) which would result in a slow health drain unless the fire was put out (I propose that would happen if a flaming target hit a certain speed.) Furthermore, someone with this weapon using it while flying forwards too fast could set themselves afire (a good nerf, methinks, and one that would require a bit of skill to use effectively.) A flaming mark running into another could also set that other one afire. It's more of a fun weapon than a useful one, but still.

That's why none of these try to be "true" melee weapons- all of them are expendables that are thrown at, shot at, or attached to a target (with the exception of the ramming shield, which is a kamikaze weapon.) As cool as it would be to have melee weapons, it would be rather difficult in a game like this. It may be cool to have a bash attack usable only when one is totally out of ammo, but that's the only place I see for a true melee-type thingamajig- and OPing them would indeed make them very susceptible to HoF abuse.

I never played those games, so that could account for some confusion. Even so, all a capper would have to do is kick on overdrive and this shield and they'll be almost impossible to stop.

Personally, I think this would be best if fluid dynamics were introduced where the cluster bomb would release a goo that would splat all over the surroundings and if it got hit by something (say weapons fire) it explodes. Of course, that means fluid dynamics which is a bad idea, but I guess there could be some way to work around it... Say it launches twenty little blobs that stick to things and just decal themselves on. If the decal gets hit, it explodes in a small little fireball.

So... A throwing knife?

I still really don't like the idea of a disable weapon, regardless of duration... In virtually any other game, I'd be fine with a HUD scrambler, but there are people in legions that play without a reticle. I don't need my healthbars all the time, so taking them out won't matter either. As for something that weights them down... I could go for that... I don't know how you justify anything, but maybe it's some sort of sniper weapon that anything you hit gets a couple hundred kilograms added to its mass for a few seconds.

I could be cool with that. Once again, if we go with a fluid stream idea, then any unburned liquid could just form a few droplets at the end of the stream that would land on things and make them incendiary later. This would make them still practical at high speed as you could at least set someone up for a fireworks display. Sure, you may not be able to ignite them, but you could get them ready to be burned by a teammate.

Honestly though, if you made the napalm (or other incendiary liquid) persistent and volatile, that would make for a weapon that would revolutionize gameplay. You fire and it lights up a stream of destruction that would burn targets alive. Since it does spread out with distance, it would be a GREAT dueling weapon. Not to mention that firing at the flag with an incoming capper to turn the capper into a candle would make it very effective on defense (assuming that someone else succeeds in slowing him down so that he's not going too fast to be lit.) I would love to play with a weapon like that. If you're flying at another player, you fire a burst of napalm at them. Sure, it doesn't ignite. Oh well. As soon as they get to your base, they will be. A flamethrower at this point I think is my new favorite weapon addition. My only concern is the idea of griefers spraying everything in sight so as to lag the game. Even that could be fixed by having the game do a collision check on the decals. If one hits another, then you simply increase the burntime variable from the previous one. This way, you won't have those lag problems.

As for the way to fire the weapon itself, I think I know how... Make it fire a stream of raindrop shaped "bullets" of propellant many times per second with each one having its angle randomly generated at about the same rate as a CG that's about to overheat, maybe a bit more. This way, they spread out and then you just have the actual flame animation on each one. These things would follow parabolic arcs by the way, Simply put, if the propellant touches a flame of any sort (or CG round as they are tracers) and is below a set velocity, it ignites. If not, they continue on a parabolic path until they splat down on impact, leaving a small decal denotating the existence of something incendiary. I guess in that regard, you might be able to turn it into a mine of sorts...