The Great Mortar Debate Thread
- Thread starter Karnage
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Immanent
Member
Yeah, the only people that bitch about it are the "pros" who keep on exclaiming "STOP MORTAR SPAMMING EVERYWHERE!@!@@!@!!!@!@"
I was playing against unleashed/mightydeath yesterday, and he practically targeted all those who used mortars. He would use expletives if he got ever so slightly damaged by his own teammates mortar.
New times call for new methods for D. It's change, adapt or lose out.
Then everybody stacks heavy on D and mortar *lady friends* the flagstand when a capper comes within 30 meters of it.
MightyDeath
Member
I love you too bro.
Atleast you didn't have on your team 3-4 players spamming mortars which in my opinion is not helping your team.
Also the problem is not the mortar itself, but the players who use it. They need to learn how to use it, not just fricking spam it all over the base.
Atleast you didn't have on your team 3-4 players spamming mortars which in my opinion is not helping your team.
Also the problem is not the mortar itself, but the players who use it. They need to learn how to use it, not just fricking spam it all over the base.
Karnage
Private Tester
Thank you for posting this Piggeh. I think this is largely what the 'new' HoFs don't get because they have never had to seriously play in a team in real matches. The HoF needs to let the chasers do their jobs. He needs to be there to keep llamas away when the flag returns. Otherwise, there he goes chasing, he returns the flag and some llama who has been standing on the flag grabs it and is away before the HoF can even respawn. He also needs to be there when the cappers get home, even go out to meet them. But if he is off chasing and doing HO the capper comes home and dies. Goodbye flaggie. Oh and Jago, I iOD all the time to block people. It works fine for me.
I would like to add that I had a HUGE argument with other members in my clan the other day. If we had been in the same room, damage would have been done to people. They were saying I must just accept the mortar but none of them did HoFFing regularly so it was fine for them. If the mortar stays it means the death of the HoF in Pubs (my position) as far as I can tell. The HoF gets mortared by his own teammates as well as by the enemy HO who often stand far away from the flag stand and just spam like crazy. It is impossible to HoF in pubs these days. This means it's impossible to practice HoF for when real matches occur, so the HoF is effectively dead. "Don't HoF then!" they told me but it's easy for them. I have been HoFFing forever. It's what I am good at and I enjoy playing the position. It would be tragic if the HoF position were to be eradicated. In fact I don't see myself playing Legions any more if that is the case.
jago
Member
i don't always HOF. If in game you see me chasing i'm not playing the role of HOF obviously. The heavy does have more than 1 role, just because i choose to wear heavy armor to defend and chase that doesn't mean i'm playing HOF .
karnage your style of HOFFing is dead when are you going to realize that.
iOD if its works for you that's good. I didn't say it was wrong, i was just giving my opinion that i see it as pointless on most maps except a couple.
after all these years you have only ever played HOF, that's sad. I know its hard to teach old dogs new tricks but when you see me in game come and say hi and ill teach you a few xxxx....... friendly banter between heavies i respect your game more than you think grandad HOF xxxx
karnage your style of HOFFing is dead when are you going to realize that.
iOD if its works for you that's good. I didn't say it was wrong, i was just giving my opinion that i see it as pointless on most maps except a couple.
after all these years you have only ever played HOF, that's sad. I know its hard to teach old dogs new tricks but when you see me in game come and say hi and ill teach you a few xxxx....... friendly banter between heavies i respect your game more than you think grandad HOF xxxx
Disci
Old man
This is the first time I've heard that iOD is not as effective as mortar spamming the flag when we discussion is about capper stopping. Also I agree that HoF should be able to chase but if he is out of position when flag returns or capper needs the pass, then he didn't do his job well enough. What do you do at home as HoF when both flags are miles away from you, appart from getting raped by LO's? I have never liked restrictions people have put on different positions when there are times when you have absolutely nothing to do and possibly could actually contribute to your team one way or another. Also, stopping the llamas is actually StayD's job, not just HoF's. Get your arguments right, people.
LumpySausage
Member
My God Jago teach him a few tricks? Karnage would beat your ass down before he even gets crictical health.
We and I believe most of us on this thread are basically trying to say and help you.
Don't spam the mortar on the flag stand it hinders the defense in your team.
Ha? If your good at something why stop. It's like eating your favorite ice cream over and over again
just to stop because your parent said your going on a diet.
When your good at something don't quit. Plus I've seen Karnage do more than HoF he chases, I think I saw him once or twice heavy cap.
ColoredSpades
Member
You, sir, have just made yourself look like a complete idiot. No, scratch that, a retarded deformed penguin. I've been playing in the US servers on and off, and I have to say that your statement is wronger than death by slow-cutting. I've been HoFFing like that since around when this game got back up. You have to realize that style is NOT dead. In fact, it is very much alive, or at least from what I see.
Yes, mortaring the stand also works, but that's pretty much a last resort when you can't reach like OD nuking
Also, you must be *dancing* body-blocking with an OR or body blocking horrible cappers, because sent is too slow to move to intercept when the capper can just jet up or downjat or simply OD off something else.
jago
Member
I have been guilty of allowing paraelisa to llama and new players when i do play HOF. lol sorry people
i've played a few games with Piggeh, not many at all even less with you Disci and you Karnage before you make your assumptions ask the European cappers if i'm effective when i do play HOF on normal servers....
play more games on normal servers and we shall see
i've played a few games with Piggeh, not many at all even less with you Disci and you Karnage before you make your assumptions ask the European cappers if i'm effective when i do play HOF on normal servers....
play more games on normal servers and we shall see
Karnage
Private Tester
Okay, well let's not derail this thread. Disci makes a good point but I must add that he is talking about Defence players in general while I am talking specifically about the HoF's role. I also chase with the heavy but only to a point and then I turn back so that I can be there for the capper or to stop Llamas, so I am not restricting the HoF to nothing but base D when I say what I am saying. It's just that that should be his primary focus.
jago
Member
who is the best capper in this game?
and this thread isn't about me
look at all the new heavies that are around if you want to talk about mortar spamming
if i'm playing HOF that's exactly what i do but often im not playing HOF that's what most of you are unable to grasp. When i play HOF i stand in a different position to when i'm chasing
i didn't say mortar spamming was more effective than iOD stop making things up and twisting what i said
and this thread isn't about me
look at all the new heavies that are around if you want to talk about mortar spamming
LumpySausage
Member
Yes but what your saying makes it about you.and this thread isn't about me
Change the name to HOW TO EFFECTIVELY USE A SENTINEL IN PUBLIC TEST SERVER!
Not true were aren't twisting up what you said.
If you didn't say that with your own keyboard who did then?
Propkid
Member
You sir have e-peen issues and you post too much. And this thread seems to be more and more about you as you post more and more.
Yo let's get some facts straight: the reason why us old and grumpy IA vets complain about mortar is that with the way it is being currently used it is ineffective against anyone with a bit of sense and at the same time it makes life harder for your own team. I don't think that eg. MightyDeath has any issues with the enemy spamming mortar in their own base; all you need to do in order to dodge it is to take a larger arc with OD when you are grabbing the flag so that the mortar explodes before you grab the flag. The other method is to grab the flag sooner than the mortar moron expects it (also OD usage). Yes, these methods are silly-easy but rookies still don't realize this and you mortar *ladyfriends* abuse this and get e-peen boners thinking that you are being effective D while all that you're stopping is rookies and llamas.
This new method for D of yours is less effective than the old one; heck I stop more skilled cappers by being a Medium on Flag in pubs than 2 mortar spamming morons (and D is not the position that I'm known for). Newbies willing to play the heavy should learn to HoF, which means iOD and BB; mortar is just an extra-empowering tool that should be used further away from the flagstand and your teammates.
jago
Member
where do i say that a mortar is more effective than iOD at stopping cappers.
my opinion: a rocket will stop a capper more times out of 10 than using iOD. So i go with the rocket every time, but on a test server ill try the mortar.
will people stop bringing my name into the conversation then. talk about the mortar and stop pointing your fingers at me because ill bite the tinkler off.
WildFire
Warrior of Linux
Says the person that has 4 times the amount of jago, he is defending his point of view, and what is wrong with that?
Propkid
Member
At least I'm not trying to deny it
(If you haven't noticed: a mod has merged most of his posts together, because he was posting too short and too frequent. That's what I was referring to...)
Disci
Old man
I've played many times with and against you. You just never knew it was me. Ofcos there's been few weeks break from Legions but I doubt much has changed during these days.
RiPTaCk
Member
I wasn't kidding!
Immanent
Member
My condescension senses are tingling.
How do you know that I'm not an IA vet?
Did I really invent this so called "new method of using mortars on enemies"?
Heck, I pose a really big threat on D due to my low ping chain, and MAs, which I do with sentis as well, however I play with Raiders more often than anything else. But I certainly do not put my ass on the flag when there is a heavy. Simply because it's not my "job" and I don't want to die by mortar friendly fire. If everybody thought like that, there would be no mortar team killing crap.
I know my facts thank you very much.
broccoli
New Member
Hi guys,
As an almost exclusively sentinel player, here are my thoughts on the mortar.
Good: Big range and big damage.
On defense, Hof's should have a viable way of damaging/slowing outbound enemy cappers and this does the trick much better than clusters. This is especially important/effective when someone is heavy capping. It still requires skill to hit the fast-moving target, especially if your chasers are close behind (in which case it might be tetter not to shoot at all).
On offense, HO's should be able to wreak some appreciable amount of damage to the defense (which will become even more critical when the planned base assets like turrets come into play.) Some bases have enough complexity that the defense can shield itself from the mortar spam, some don't. I think that is part if the beauty of the different maps. Different maps should mean different tactics instead of just different cap routes, same tactics.
In duels, the mortar certainly helps the fatty not suck so much considering what a large, slow-moving target they are. I don't know how much of an improvement they are to clusters, since the clusters gave you control over the explosion time, letting you detonate them over blind ridges and other little tricks, but as long as they mortars aren't a huge downgrade in dueling utility from the clusters (which they are not) I'm fine with swapping the clusters out for the mortars.
Optional improvement suggestions:
1. There are some complaints about the damage level being OP. Seerking and I were messing around with mortar to get a feel for the actual damage amounts and I think they are reasonable. A direct hit will kill a light, which makes sense to me. A direct hit will take medium down to 25% health, which I am also good with. I forget how much a direct hit took heavy down to, but I don't think many heavies mind the power of the mortar too much
I don't think there is any reason to change the max damage levels for the mortar. What we did notice though was that a mortar that exploded about 10 ft away from medium (assuming the legions sprites are about man-sized) took the medium down to around 50% which I thought was pretty beefy damage for that distance. Something you can do to help make the mortar less effective/attractive for newb spammers while retaining its lethality for the pros is to steepen the splash damage dropoff curve vs the distance from a direct hit. This puts the emphasis on accuracy while still rewarding near hits, albeit for less damage. If your damage dropoff is something like:
(damage) = (max damage) / (1 + R)
(where R is distance from direct hit, so R = 0 is a direct hit, and R = 10 means the mortar exploded 10 ft from the target)
you can add a constant to steepen the dropff by however much you want:
(damage) = (max damage) / (1 + C *R)
or you could even go a step further by putting an exponent on the R to make the dropoff even more exaggerated. I think you get the idea though. Being a mortar user, I don't particularly mind the splash damage range and level that the mortar currently has, but if enough people are complaining about mortar damage, I think this would be the best way to 'nerf' it.
2. The instant explosion mortar MA's, although impressive and funny, could be seen by many as OP. It can certainly act as an unexpected game-changer in dueling situations. I think a fuse-arming time delay is something fundamental to mortars, so I wouldn't mind enforcing that so if you MA'd someone too close before the mortar shot had armed, it would just bounce off the target and drop (like how I think it was in Tribes 1). (It'd be really funny if in that situation, while the mortar did not explode to do any damage, it did impart some kinetic momentum on the target, pushing them back a certain amount, depending on the weight of the target. Might be too much of a computational hassle though... just throwing it out there if you dev's feel like it'd be pretty simple to implement.)
Requested improvement suggestion:
1. Like another poster mentioned in this thread, the mortar explosion graphic lags my computer if one explodes nearby. In a cap route, this split second lack of computer response could mean running into a pillar. Could you simplify the graphic to make it less computationally draining (or whatever will help the computer display it more smoothly.)
Thank you devs for making an awesome game to keep the Tribes tradition alive.
Your fat nutritious friend,
Broccoli
As an almost exclusively sentinel player, here are my thoughts on the mortar.
Good: Big range and big damage.
On defense, Hof's should have a viable way of damaging/slowing outbound enemy cappers and this does the trick much better than clusters. This is especially important/effective when someone is heavy capping. It still requires skill to hit the fast-moving target, especially if your chasers are close behind (in which case it might be tetter not to shoot at all).
On offense, HO's should be able to wreak some appreciable amount of damage to the defense (which will become even more critical when the planned base assets like turrets come into play.) Some bases have enough complexity that the defense can shield itself from the mortar spam, some don't. I think that is part if the beauty of the different maps. Different maps should mean different tactics instead of just different cap routes, same tactics.
In duels, the mortar certainly helps the fatty not suck so much considering what a large, slow-moving target they are. I don't know how much of an improvement they are to clusters, since the clusters gave you control over the explosion time, letting you detonate them over blind ridges and other little tricks, but as long as they mortars aren't a huge downgrade in dueling utility from the clusters (which they are not) I'm fine with swapping the clusters out for the mortars.
Optional improvement suggestions:
1. There are some complaints about the damage level being OP. Seerking and I were messing around with mortar to get a feel for the actual damage amounts and I think they are reasonable. A direct hit will kill a light, which makes sense to me. A direct hit will take medium down to 25% health, which I am also good with. I forget how much a direct hit took heavy down to, but I don't think many heavies mind the power of the mortar too much
I don't think there is any reason to change the max damage levels for the mortar. What we did notice though was that a mortar that exploded about 10 ft away from medium (assuming the legions sprites are about man-sized) took the medium down to around 50% which I thought was pretty beefy damage for that distance. Something you can do to help make the mortar less effective/attractive for newb spammers while retaining its lethality for the pros is to steepen the splash damage dropoff curve vs the distance from a direct hit. This puts the emphasis on accuracy while still rewarding near hits, albeit for less damage. If your damage dropoff is something like:(damage) = (max damage) / (1 + R)
(where R is distance from direct hit, so R = 0 is a direct hit, and R = 10 means the mortar exploded 10 ft from the target)
you can add a constant to steepen the dropff by however much you want:
(damage) = (max damage) / (1 + C *R)
or you could even go a step further by putting an exponent on the R to make the dropoff even more exaggerated. I think you get the idea though. Being a mortar user, I don't particularly mind the splash damage range and level that the mortar currently has, but if enough people are complaining about mortar damage, I think this would be the best way to 'nerf' it.
2. The instant explosion mortar MA's, although impressive and funny, could be seen by many as OP. It can certainly act as an unexpected game-changer in dueling situations. I think a fuse-arming time delay is something fundamental to mortars, so I wouldn't mind enforcing that so if you MA'd someone too close before the mortar shot had armed, it would just bounce off the target and drop (like how I think it was in Tribes 1). (It'd be really funny if in that situation, while the mortar did not explode to do any damage, it did impart some kinetic momentum on the target, pushing them back a certain amount, depending on the weight of the target. Might be too much of a computational hassle though... just throwing it out there if you dev's feel like it'd be pretty simple to implement.)
Requested improvement suggestion:
1. Like another poster mentioned in this thread, the mortar explosion graphic lags my computer if one explodes nearby. In a cap route, this split second lack of computer response could mean running into a pillar. Could you simplify the graphic to make it less computationally draining (or whatever will help the computer display it more smoothly.)
Thank you devs for making an awesome game to keep the Tribes tradition alive.
Your fat nutritious friend,
Broccoli
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