How to play heavy?

[Ness]

Hello again (for the third time I get back to L:O lolz, some might recognise me as T:V player).
Well, I started to play as sent, and I have came here to ask:

How the hell should I play it?

It looks like sent is viable only for standing on the flag and iODing cappers or timing mortar on the flagstand to kill both cappers and your teammates. Thats pretty dull and doesn't fit the game that offers freedom of movement.
I tried playing it as offensive sent, but it lacks pretty much everything for it. You can't avoid damage due to crappy dodge ability and that means that you often die faster as sent than as raider (!). You often during duels don't have jet to simply fly, which ends in either you having perfect aim or just them grenading you to death due to constant high-ground advantage.
Maybe I'm looking at it from bad perspective. Of course sent isn't meant to be good at dueling. But it looks like heavy isn't meant to be offensive. You don't have increased firepower except for mortar, which isn't reliable, and has kinda crappy range. Bases are designed to have height advantage and that often leads to not being able to mortar the enemy flagstand at all unless engaging defense at duel range, which is against the design of sent (!).

IMO sent is lacking something. One advantage that should make him much more unique than iOD which is often replaced with cores anyway. My shot would be allthetime regen that doesn't stop during taking damage or flying. But that doesn't have to be it.


Also does somebody remembers the post/thread with OD & jetting explained from physics point of view?

 

[Dabbleh]

Sentinel has never been viable for any offensive play, the same way outrider is not really meant for defensive play.

 

[Ness]

Outrider is viable for defensive play because chasing is a part of defense.

 

[Dabbleh]

Outrider is viable for defensive play because chasing is a part of defense.

True..
What would you suggest to buff the heavy class then?

 

[stefygraff]

You cant really use Sent for O, but we have a player that uses heavy offence pretty well (Karnage). My opinion is that you should use heavy for D. You will be very efficient if you practice!

 

[Ness]

You cant really use Sent for O, but we have a player that uses heavy offence pretty well (Karnage). My opinion is that you should use heavy for D. You will be very efficient if you practice!

But for D I can use LD as well, because I rely on midairing cappers which works no matter what armor do I wear. IMO sent deserves increasing initial speed of mortar projectile to buff it's range. Very often I get good occasion of just wiping half of the enemy defense but my mortar lacks range by few meters. Would make it much more reliable (especially due to speed inheriting it's unusable when shooting backwards, it's like sent is designed to be a sitting duck and everything just makes you not want to go high speed). That's a minor buff, won't break balance so much but it might even solve the balance O vs D (dunno what's current general opinion, but good D wins with good O) simply by making sent offense viable.
Today we played some weird map I don't remember, but bases had no height advantage over terrain arround them. This is where I totally enjoyed heavy offense because I felt that it's possible to actually be effective with it.

 

[SeymourGore]

Before the mortar nerf, it was a pretty decent offensive class. "Too decent," the nerdlings complained, and it received a nerf.

 

[Xtreme]

standing on the flag

iODing cappers

pretty dull

crappy dodge ability

die faster

don't have jet

mortar lacks range

sitting duck

I cannot think of more (accurate) ways to describe heavy XD

the same way outrider is not really meant for defensive play.

rofl

 

[SNAKEOPS]

Outrider is viable for defensive play because chasing is a part of defense.

Don't forget LD, there are good players like Fire who can MA incoming cappers.

 

[Fixious]

HO is only viable when lobbing mortars at the enemy stand for clear (could've used one during the Elegiac PUG last night). Talk with your cappers so you know when to clear and when to stop firing so you don't end up killing him. If/when Engineer comes back I could see HO being more viable.

 

[Royalty]

Ultimate Swag Protip 101:

When using Sentinel, it's a good idea to get drunk before playing. This way your reflexes are translatable to the Sentinel's manoeuvrability, and you feel bloated and sluggish, much like the Sentinel in-game.

It's logic baby, undeniable logic.

Also, stay classy legionaries.

 

[Ness]

I actually wondered if there is a point to do all that theorycrafting since the game is almost extinct and everybody waits until I get on the server (so hard to afk on server and surf the internet while waiting for ppl).
But theorycrafting is fun, lulz and helps to understand the game.
And it's 3 am and I can't sleep.
General rule is: Lighter armor is more mobile. Heavy armor has more utility, survivability and firepower.
Right now heavy has no utility advantage besides iOD, survivability is pretty much crashed by chaingun (never used it until today. screw skybolt) and firepower makes you want to go back to good old grenade launcher which is actually reliable.
It's not like that class is unfun to play. It is, mortar is awesome weapon, but this class feels like it was made for either being glued to the flagstand, trying to score mortar midair or showing off with making 120m/s routes. You don't feel that potential you felt in tribes, that compensated the feeling of having fat ass. Good heavy should be able to wipe out entire group of enemies and yet in Legions that event would only prove that entire team is made of idiots. Or heavy has awesome chaingun/rl aim in which case he would do better as outraider anyway.
Since giving sent sheer power would create a lot of whining and pointless spamming, let's buff him with more utility.
First of all, give mortar 30% increased range (it's meant to be long range weapon, but now with its arm time it's more of a land mine).
And secondly, buff sent's radar with better detection and ability to show distance from the enemies.
This has several advantages:
- Multiple heavies in one team won't make game pointless and annoying, because one heavy supports team with enough information.
- Gives something to do to those iODing ducks on flagstands. This makes them more of controllers, calling out enemy positions. Of course depending on design, it can boost defense too much, but well implemented can add more tactical thinking replacing current run n gun.
- Compensates lack of mobility without making it overpowered in face to face encounters. The idea is to make sent have hard time changing position, but also you won't need to when you can reliably attack on long range. And still anyone with height advantage will destroy you anyway. This makes class hard to play, but also more rewarding.


Well, now you can flame me for stupidity. At least it made me sleepy.

 

[Fixious]

Mortar buffs have been suggested for a while now. I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up getting a buff to their distance, though a dedicated HO who enjoys lobbing mortars from afar might want to pick up the Dodge core and tinker around for a while...

 

[GundamExia00]

Mortar buffs have been suggested for a while now. I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up getting a buff to their distance, though a dedicated HO who enjoys lobbing mortars from afar might want to pick up the Dodge core and tinker around for a while...

a person doing so would only be wasting time with the pace of legions

 

[Poponfu]

The only time I really notice a Heavy on O is someone like Sin or Contingency on return. They also hit like 1/3 across elegiac mortar shots like its their business. I just think the mortar skill level of heavies is down a lot these days. Maybe they need a perk or buff to get people to learn it again , but nothing too drastic imotbh. They are gods umong standoffs , slightly less so with EMP but gotta be carefull what you give them.

edit:I would be open to the idea of just giving them the incentive/utility of always having iOD and allowing another core(overdrive off their list). It sounds crazy at first but I dont know that it would really make them too OP. Might need some new timeouts on iOD / core use as a balance thing. Warp will probably have to be removed from their list if it were to happen. iOD and Warp D at the same time.. no.

 

[Fixious]

I somewhat partial to idea of always-on regen (except for holding the flag). But as I said earlier, if Engineer comes back, I'd imagine HO could become slightly more appealing. Base rape was what made HO so popular in Tribes, but there really aren't any bases to rape in Legions.

a person doing so would only be wasting time with the pace of legions

Not everyone aims to go 250-300 in Legions. In a basic 7v7 PUG, sure. Definitely useless. But a big 10v10 PUB, especially on Elegiac? They'd definitely be useful for clearing that stand, or at least enough of a distraction to lure out some defenders. This is what I tend to do sometimes, since HO can be fun if the game is big enough.

 

[Sin]

Hello again (for the third time I get back to L:O lolz, some might recognise me as T:V player).
Well, I started to play as sent, and I have came here to ask:

How the hell should I play it?

To answer, I've played as heavy in Legions since InstantAction, and am widely considered a top player in my position. Brag blah blah whatever.

It looks like sent is viable only for standing on the flag and iODing cappers or timing mortar on the flagstand to kill both cappers and your teammates. Thats pretty dull and doesn't fit the game that offers freedom of movement. I tried playing it as offensive sent, but it lacks pretty much everything for it.

Sentinel, in Legions, is a defensive class, as it should be. This isn't Tribes, fortunately. All three classes have their strengths and weaknesses. This game has an extremely high skill cap, and how good the player is usually determines how good the class is. The heavy has always been a staple for standoffs and good defense. With good players, a heavy is a near necessity in 7v7 or greater games. Yes, you kill teammates and enemies with the mortar, my favorite green ball, but that is collateral damage for being on the stand.

I've played heavy O in it's glory days, and trust me, it was not pretty. The firepower and scary amount of quick maneuvering coupled with a chunky health pool allows it to be very effective, believe it or not.

You can't avoid damage due to crappy dodge ability and that means that you often die faster as sent than as raider (!). You often during duels don't have jet to simply fly, which ends in either you having perfect aim or just them grenading you to death due to constant high-ground advantage.

You shouldn't win duels in heavy. It's a support based class, not an all-star do-all like Outrider. Dueling as a Sentinel requires learning how to use it to your advantage, again player skill.

Maybe I'm looking at it from bad perspective. Of course sent isn't meant to be good at dueling. But it looks like heavy isn't meant to be offensive.

It's not. As it shouldn't be.

You don't have increased firepower except for mortar, which isn't reliable, and has kinda crappy range.

Haha...again player skill. Mortar has great range, it's all about using it. If it had more, I would sit outside bases and rain green death all day every day.

Bases are designed to have height advantage and that often leads to not being able to mortar the enemy flagstand at all unless engaging defense at duel range, which is against the design of sent (!).

No...your aim just sucks. Again, heavy isn't meant to be offensive either way. Not in Legions.

IMO sent is lacking something. One advantage that should make him much more unique than iOD which is often replaced with cores anyway. My shot would be allthetime regen that doesn't stop during taking damage or flying. But that doesn't have to be it.

Jesus. I would kill everything.


Heavy shouldn't be offensive, I've tested it both ways many, many times. Take it from me, heavy is fine as is. Everyone sucks at using it. If you want me to explain something in more detail, or have more questions, feel free to ask.

 

[Ness]

Sentinel, in Legions, is a defensive class, as it should be. This isn't Tribes, fortunately. All three classes have their strengths and weaknesses. This game has an extremely high skill cap, and how good the player is usually determines how good the class is. The heavy has always been a staple for standoffs and good defense. With good players, a heavy is a near necessity in 7v7 or greater games. Yes, you kill teammates and enemies with the mortar, my favorite green ball, but that is collateral damage for being on the stand.

It's pretty much not about what it is, it's about what it could be. Legions & Tribes were unique because they literally allow every strat possible, no matter how long you played it you could always find out something new. And there comes sent. It looks like literally "it's too hard to stop the cappers and we would like to place a monolith instead of flagstand but that would be weird so we will make heavy instead". Heavy has been given the tools to work like that and everybody is happy, but I would like to see him as a class that has certain features that allow it to achieve things in interesting ways, not a class that has only one purpose to exist.

You shouldn't win duels in heavy. It's a support based class, not an all-star do-all like Outrider. Dueling as a Sentinel requires learning how to use it to your advantage, again player skill.

Let's expand it further - you shouldn't duel as heavy :>

Haha...again player skill. Mortar has great range, it's all about using it. If it had more, I would sit outside bases and rain green death all day every day.

Actually, there are kinda no footages with mortar gameplay so if you had any that would serve "teaching purposes", I'd be grateful. Because I don't think that my aim sucks, I just only miss something about using it.

Heavy shouldn't be offensive, I've tested it both ways many, many times. Take it from me, heavy is fine as is. Everyone sucks at using it. If you want me to explain something in more detail, or have more questions, feel free to ask.

I don't know if you don't want heavy be actually viable on offensive, or you don't see current heavy on offensive. I would actually like heavy to be less of a fat ass doing everything but slower and more of a long range guy who focuses on his positioning and timing rather then exploiting mobility and reflex.

 

[Sin]

I'm sure a team could still work in a heavy for an offensive strategy, I have myself.

This said, I'm also sure you've only played public games at a low level with bad players, I've played at the highest level the game offers. It's not all about diversity and gimmicks, some things are built to do specific things.

It's pretty much not about what it is, it's about what it could be. Legions & Tribes were unique because they literally allow every strat possible, no matter how long you played it you could always find out something new. And there comes sent. It looks like literally "it's too hard to stop the cappers and we would like to place a monolith instead of flagstand but that would be weird so we will make heavy instead". Heavy has been given the tools to work like that and everybody is happy, but I would like to see him as a class that has certain features that allow it to achieve things in interesting ways, not a class that has only one purpose to exist.

Trucks are usually built to be used as work vehicles, but some companies have built "race trucks" that go fast in a straight line. They can't handle worth their life, but they go fast. Heavy is somewhat the same way.

Let's expand it further - you shouldn't duel as heavy :>

I didn't say you shouldn't duel, I said you shouldn't win, depending on the player.

Actually, there are kinda no footages with mortar gameplay so if you had any that would serve "teaching purposes", I'd be grateful. Because I don't think that my aim sucks, I just only miss something about using it.

As for the aim, I meant learning the weapon itself. Aim higher to compensate, use iOD to give an added boost into your toss. Mortar can 100-0 an Outrider, so we don't want to slap a ballistic range on it.

I don't know if you don't want heavy be actually viable on offensive, or you don't see current heavy on offensive.

I don't want it to be viable. It would be ridiculously overpowered. As it has been previously, which led to nerfs. Heavy does things the other classes simply can't.

As for this:

I would actually like heavy to be less of a fat ass doing everything but slower and more of a long range guy who focuses on his positioning and timing rather then exploiting mobility and reflex.

Are we talking mortar, or heavy in general?

 

[Ness]

This said, I'm also sure you've only played public games at a low level with bad players, I've played at the highest level the game offers. It's not all about diversity and gimmicks, some things are built to do specific things.

I played pugs when they were actually played, current competitive scene is nonexistent in eu at least, but still heavy was always meant only for hofing.

Trucks are usually built to be used as work vehicles, but some companies have built "race trucks" that go fast in a straight line. They can't handle worth their life, but they go fast. Heavy is somewhat the same way.

Trucks were meant to transport, but they transport various things. That's how heavy should work: excels in area that is quite wide, not only serves one purpose.

As for the aim, I meant learning the weapon itself. Aim higher to compensate, use iOD to give an added boost into your toss. Mortar can 100-0 an Outrider, so we don't want to slap a ballistic range on it.

As for stationairy targets, it's not hard to figure it out, but I thought that there is a magic way of not wasting hp to be able to extend the range to one that makes sense. As for mobile targets, trying to score shots with 1+ second travel time is relying on targets unawareness which unexpectedly works quite often.
I have a strange feeling that legions players think that it's hard to aim in this game. This is actually the first tribes game that apparently has hitboxes where they should be and aiming is the easiest thing to learn here.

I don't want it to be viable. It would be ridiculously overpowered. As it has been previously, which led to nerfs. Heavy does things the other classes simply can't.

Shoots mortars and iODs. Overpowered.

Are we talking mortar, or heavy in general?

Heavy in general, but for me there is no reason to play heavy except mortar, so... it ends up being a mortar conversation.