Captaining 101

[AFireInAsa]

So you have 3 people who are willing to captain, are complaining about recurrent stacked teams, and you are going to gear a "Captaining guide" to all of the people who don't captain and don't trust to figure out a reasonably accurate top 20? Really?

In your top 10, only Fire and you captain at all regularly (bugspray barely plays). Why don't you ask the other 8 to captain? You know, you'd increase captains over 2 fold that way, and you wouldn't even have to teach them the intricacies of the rocket-science of picking teams.

But by all means, let's have another circle-jerk thread, as if there aren't enough of those :-].

Everyone in the top 10 there (besides Mabel maybe) DO captain. In fact, I'd say this list also semi-accurately represents who captains the most. The problems that we typically have occurs when maybe only two or three of these top players who also enjoy captaining are around (which is actually VERY often and usually occurs when Zeta is playing Rift ).

Now, most people who step up to captain do have a rough estimate on who's good and who's not. The thing is, when you're up against a very competitive captain, even one mistake in your picking (I hate to call picking certain people a mistake, but it's true, and this post is going to make me feel inhumane, but it's just a game and I'm not basing this on people's personalities or anything) can cause the outcome of the game to change. I know this from first hand experience playing against Darklord (or with him for that matter) who is a very competitive captain. Most of our games are good. And I know that he won't let one of his picks slide if I make a bad one, because generally, we can't tell how the outcome of a game will unfold (if it will be close or not, or if I pwn his ass). That said, I'm a pretty good captain. In fact, I started captaining to actually play in PUGs (I wasn't picked before unless Unknown was captain, so I had to take it up on my own liberty to show people what I was made of ). But even I make mistakes and bad judgement calls, and it's crazy but, even the most minuscule of these can make it a crappy game before us captains even realize it.

That being said, I made it a goal to minimize the amount of bad calls I make (maybe it's not taking that HoF when I should have, or whatever). The games where two captains go down the line and pick exactly who they should have when they should have (almost) always turns out to be the best games.

Now, we've tried ways of balancing teams. I mentioned earlier in this thread, as a captain, myself and other should go about possibly throwing away picks to better games, but even that creates a certain randomness in games where you don't know the outcome nearly as well as if the players picked perfectly like I stated before (not saying we shouldn't do this, but it'd be better if we didn't have to, which is why this thread is here). We've also tried methods of having one player captain for both teams and having them go down the line splitting the team up. This never seems to work though, since people don't listen and it's not as easy for one mind to split up a game as to benefit both teams equally as it is for two (who both want to win and are good pickers).

I can go on more about things we've tried and things we haven't tried (and why they may not work), but I (and the other people who captain pretty regularly and play in PUGs regularly, all seem to be on the same stance with this topic, as you've noticed) have came to the conclusion that the best way to have a fun, fair, competitive (note this is what PUGs are for, more fun, fair, and competitive play than PUBs or even team games) is to have two captains of similar skill level pick good teams. Subtracting from any of these three important aspects of PUGs make it not quite a true PUG (not to mention subtracting from one aspect generally results in the subtraction of another).

1. If you know the teams are stacked before starting (or even mid game), reset and repick. No reason to waste 25 mins.

2. Establish captains right as the map ends, so it doesn't devolve into the usual banter that lasts 45 minutes and the inevitable putzing around that everyone knows too well. This way people can look at the names and start thinking already.

3. Realize that some people are bad at assessing skill even if they are good at the game, though the reverse is not usually true. Maybe perro just got unlucky (1 is hardly a good sample size), or messed up a pick, but it's hard to get blown out. Again, everyone might have been better served by you throwing away a pick or 2 so that he gets a roughly equivalent team.

:-]

1. As I noted above, we don't always know. We may have a general feel for who's going to win, but that shouldn't call for a complete repick.

2. There's nothing to say here. People don't step up and captain. That's one of the reasons why this thread is here.

3. It's not nearly as hard as you think. Throwing away a pick or two is a good way to balance PUGs sometimes, as I said, but it's not as easy as having two good captains (which is what this thread is promoting).

Honestly, if we are waiting in the pug channel, I'm usually one of the people who volunteer. Skepsis and I are starting to captain more.

This is also a good way to get a good PUG going. Skepsis and Shaska are on a simliar skill level and familiararity of the game. And when one says "I'll captain if you do," it usually gets a good game going. With this thread, hopefully it will even further this goal.

I would also like to note Darklord isn't finished with this thread. He's going to address more things like what I said above.

 

[Jack]

Good post

Yeah, in mid Jan-early March though, I think I've seen unknown, homingun, ucan, mabel combined captain about 5-10 times. Of course I agree that it's a higher quality game when it's more competitive. But it is not like captaining with DL is at all a significant % of total pugs. For the vast, vast majority, they would be better served by a "fair competitiveness". I recall when some old legions player came back and immediately started captaining without knowing half the people, and was picking based on egos from the old legions, and was captaining against a regular 2nd round pick. The latter just wrecked him in 10 mins - but only after wasting 90 mins between picking teams, explaining positions, and waiting for a server. It's retarded.

I guess where we differ is that I don't think this thread really helps that much, and in the process, comes off to me as another circle-jerk. As I said in another post, apparently this guide is written for people who never captain, DL doesn't trust to even come up with a top 20, and after complaints of recurrent stacked teams. That should hardly be your target audience, no? It makes much more sense to hound the top 40 to step up (which generally I would think could come up with a top 20).

Maybe I just have too high an opinion of people's intelligence. "Well if I need to have a hof and there is only one hof in the server, it's probably smart to get him. If there are only 2 top equivalent cappers, I'm probably screwed if I don't get either of them." I mean, that just summarized 1/3 of his post.

Primary intention of more captains is good. Method, idk.

 

[Battelstar]

ive been on a few times i will go on more if thats the case ty

You are european, right? If you want to join a euro pug the best way to get in is to join the IRC pickup channel #legions.pickup. There you'll find out when a pug is (mostly friday-sunday at 20 or 21 cet) and who is going to play. You can sign up there, too.

 

[Darklord]

I'm confused. Who on earth is jack?

 

[OmniNept]

It's tough to ascertain the motives of a half-finished post, so I'll withhold posting. Mostly.

To start things off, this part bothered me:

Clearly the way to teach people how to be a good captain is to teach them how to lose. That makes a ton of sense.

Clearly, the way to win an argument is to form an effigy of opposing views whilst casting aspersions from your pedantic pedestal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I'm pretty sure you're well aware that the point being made is one of moderation – a focus on fun and community, instead of on winning.

And three additional things:

1. You don't have to be an active pug participant to contribute to these conversations. Assuming something can't be understood by those not in your position is a fallacy – most often poisoning the well. To cite specific instances, it would be stupid to conclude that myself, Wrist-Spikes McGee Gheist, Seymour, and Bytor aren't able to fathom pug play and team selection. And using “it doesn't concern you” doesn't work either: the latter three care very much about the Legions community; and I don't like seeing so much stupid in a small space.

The only complaints I am reading in this thread are from A) People who don't play at all or B) people who don't play pickups. Dacil threatening to not play pickups anymore? The horror!

It's funny how many of the players contending this thread are players that I have rarely seen in pick-ups and even more rarely captain.

Is it really that surprising? You might recognize alternative explanations if you thought instead of assumed. Here's another (rather obvious) perspective: many community members avoid pugs because they don't like the toxic environment. This thread perpetuates that environment, inciting those people to post in protest.

Yours isn't the only perspective; and it's almost certainly not the correct one.

As for this:

If you had a bad experience, deal with it and contribute to a better one. Shutting yourself away isn't going to help anyone. And remember, PUGs aren't for hugs.

How many forum debates have seen you shut yourself away? Many-a-time, you've found it easier to walk away than deal with confrontation. Newer pug players/captains – indeed, people in general – are no different. And no, you're not special because you didn't want to “waste your time”: I imagine many mature Legions players have felt the same way about pugs.

(Cute adage though – maybe it'll catch on.)

2. Most posters are spot on with the fun > winning. A list that encourages the same select few be chosen time and again isn't particularly helpful to the community-at-large. Take the time to understand that concern rather than immediately assuming defensive posturing. Darklord, it's plain you're concerned primarily with “winning”. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, and it's a position I understand. However, it may not be the best position for pug/community health. You seem to enjoy pugs, on some level, so you might want to give that some thought.

3.

You may not like the idea of a list of who to pick, but that is damn well by far the #1 more important thing to have available to people who want to captain.

I'd argue that besides avoiding redundancy, “by far the #1 most important thing” is an accommodating atmosphere. Captains who are encouraged and supported by their teams will return; captains that are badmouthed and blamed won't. Pretty simple. No number of rankings, histograms, scatterplots, or Venn diagrams will compensate for childish attitudes.

Having said this, my intent isn't to discourage further posting. Certainly the general topic, at least, warrants further discussion. And perhaps Darklord's finished post will be insightful. If not, it shall certainly be entertaining.

 

[OmniNept]

hahahahaha to the part in bold!!! that's pretty funny! I actually captained not too long ago and even did a euro one for the heck of it XD but you wouldn't notice that b/c i will admit i'm not a great player and apparently you can only remember the awesome players because you single out and hate on bad players as if they are lost causes who can't learn, ever. BUT anyways!!...I was saying how you think about what is fun and what's important in PUGs makes me not want to play (what i've learned is to not stop playing PUGs, but to just never ever pick you....i know i know, my loss, totally, HA) because, as it has also been stated, you guys apparently bi*** like prissy little girls behind captains' backs over a stupid game that when you REALLY think about it, doesn't have any importance at all in the grand scheme of life...GG!!!

+5 Omni Points (OP) for bellicosity.

Omniscient Vent cordially invites you to perform a reading of the above post. Dinner and refreshments will be served; attire is evening casual.

 

[Homingun]

Is it really that surprising? You might recognize alternative explanations if you thought instead of assumed. Here's another (rather obvious) perspective: many community members avoid pugs because they don't like the toxic environment. This thread perpetuates that environment, inciting those people to post in protest.

Maybe if these "community members" don't like such a toxic environments, they could do something about it instead of sitting in the corner (or on a pedestal) pointing fingers. I find even funnier how players I have rarely seen in TS3 can judge the "toxicity" of the entire PUGing environment.

Obviously not everyone is going to get along with everyone else, but PUGs as of right now (atmosphere wise) are fine. There are enough level-headed people to keep the hot-heads in check. If some players can't deal with the minute conflicts that arise once in a while, then pick-ups(and a lot of other things) aren't for them. There are many of us who have adjusted and find PUGs fun (again atmosphere wise).

I do agree though that the current PUG setup doesn't cater to players of lower skill. But the point of a pick-up game is to have the captains pick the best players or players who they think will work best together to win the game. Whether players like it or not, it is a competitive environment. To not be repetitive, I've already written the suggestion for a more relaxed gaming experience. Also, PUBs are always present.

How many forum debates have seen you shut yourself away? Many-a-time, you've found it easier to walk away than deal with confrontation. Newer pug players/captains – indeed, people in general – are no different. And no, you're not special because you didn't want to “waste your time”: I imagine many mature Legions players have felt the same way about pugs.

Those were forum debates while these are actual games. The context and situations are completely different. And yes, I've found it easier to walk away from forum debates where people argue just for the point of arguing, attack personally, or quite simply ignored what the other person is saying. From my experience, this turns into a circle jerk or derails the thread completely. I'm afraid that by replying, I have done just that. Hence, I'm going to bow out, think(or say) what you will.

Note to you: It's quite easy to attack incessantly and personally on the internet where there are no real repercussions for ones actions. I have noticed that you have a habit of turning almost every conversation into a personal one where you attack the other person instead of discussing in a polite manner. Since the moderators are so lenient, you tend to pull others into this "war" where you attack each other continuously until the thread gets nuked or locked. Keep in mind that not getting a reply in a similar manner might make you feel like you have "won", but that is quite far from the truth.

Also, I find it funny how you took the time to change my name from Homingun to Spartan in all of my quotes. The name has been changed for a very long time now and if you expect me to take anything else you say seriously, use Homingun. Then again, I might be missing out on an inside joke.

 

[OmniNept]

Reader's Note: This reply is long, but relevant. People who aren't Spartan will probably get more from the first half of the post than the second.​

Maybe if these "community members" don't like such a toxic environments, they could do something about it instead of sitting in the corner (or on a pedestal) pointing fingers.

I believe that's what they've been doing in this very thread. Discussion and awareness often precede action.​

I find even funnier how players I have rarely seen in TS3 can judge the "toxicity" of the entire PUGing environment.

For having played the classic internet/irl card, you're not doing a very good job of saying what you mean. Speak plainly. I've heard that here on the internet, there are few repercussions to fear.​

Assessing TS3 toxicity is as simple as asking my members that frequent pugs; and according to them, things are more in-line with my perspective than yours. There are more Omni within “Darklord's best of the bestest” than you realize. (Duuuhnnn Duuuhnnn Duuuuuuuuuhhhhhnnnn)​

Regardless, my counter-interpretation stands: several people have expressed their concerns with North American pug atmosphere, and rather than address the issues, you've chosen to belittle them.​

Also, you failed to address this section:

You don't have to be an active pug participant to contribute to these conversations. Assuming something can't be understood by those not in your position is a fallacy – most often poisoning the well. To cite specific instances, it would be stupid to conclude that myself, Wrist-Spikes McGee Gheist, Seymour, and Bytor aren't able to fathom pug play and team selection.

Please address.​

There are enough level-headed people to keep the hot-heads in check.

Point of Consideration:​

Do enough level-headed people possess sufficient confidence to tell “big-name players” to shush? “Big-Name Syndrome” is prominent in smaller communities and keeps many players silent about issues they'd normally confront. To put things simply, how many puggers would tell Darklord to shut up were he railing on someone? I'm always getting hand-me-down messages through my members, passed on by people afraid to approach and talk to me. Now, I can't imagine those same people chastising me over voice. In communities where handfuls of vets run the show, it's easy to be intimidated.​

Sounds silly, right? Now imagine how many more people would pug were Seymour and Zwei running things.​

There are many of us who have adjusted and find PUGs fun (again atmosphere wise).

The argument isn't that there's a dearth of players (though there is, really), but that you could have significantly more active, decent puggers.​

But the point of a pick-up game is to have the captains pick the best players or players who they think will work best together to win the game. Whether players like it or not, it is a competitive environment.

Pugs offer organized, clanless play, the level of which is determined by the community. Were captains focusing on fair player rotations, pugs could cater to more of the playerbase. That subject, as well as the dangers of consistently selecting the same few, has been broached several times within this thread. Revitalizing the Newblood pickups would be nice, but isn't what's being requested.​

How many forum debates have seen you shut yourself away? Many-a-time, you've found it easier to walk away than deal with confrontation. Newer pug players/captains – indeed, people in general – are no different. And no, you're not special because you didn't want to “waste your time”: I imagine many mature Legions players have felt the same way about pugs.

Those were forum debates while these are actual games. The context and situations are completely different. And yes, I've found it easier to walk away from forum debates where people argue just for the point of arguing, attack personally, or quite simply ignored what the other person is saying.

The point of an analogy isn't to compare congruent contexts, but to draw similarities between separate targets. Something obvious in one context may aptly describe phenomena in another; alternatively (as with my usage), comparing contexts may shift perspective and facilitate understanding.

To clarify my example, imagine you're a 35-year old pugger and you've just been yelled at (for the third time that match) by an over-competitive captain . . . say, OmniFilt3r. Your team's bickering, the game's going nowhere, the evening's going nowhere (Filt3r's just gotten captaincy, again – and he's sure as hell not picking you), and you're plain just not having fun. (Why are you even taking this? You're 35). This is not a productive use of your time, so you leave after one or two matches.

How is this so very different from your constant thread departures? Here, you suggest that your departure is my fault for wasting your time (through personal slights, ignoring the issues, or just plain arguing back); in my analogy, I imagine the 35-year old is going to feel similarly. And what exempts you from the “suck it up, buttercup” argument you used here:

“If you had a bad experience, deal with it and contribute to a better one. Shutting yourself away isn't going to help anyone. And remember, PUGs aren't for hugs”

If you continue to argue the issues with eloquence, threads won't devolve into derailed circle jerks. If an issue's important (and especially if you've brought it up), I believe you should continue the discussion. You're not obliged, of course, but neither are you exempt from the arguments you used against discouraged puggers. Also, as an aside, prefacing “I'm leaving” with “I don't care what you think” doesn't obviate the obvious.

Re. the note to me: I respond in kind. Also, I type posts in word and enter quotes manually; I still think of you as “XSPARTANX”, so out of habit I sometimes quote it. If it's of any consolation, I feel your former name was better than your current choice. (As does Omni as a whole, by popular vote).

P.S. Forum Struggles aren't about the Snuggles.

 

[Homingun]

I just wanted to say that the "PUGs aren't for hugs" is far better than "Forum Struggles aren't about the Snuggles". I would start a poll on this if it wasn't so late already. As for the wall of text, I will reply once my ass stops hurting.

 

[Application-1]

I'm confused. Who on earth is jack?

A euro that plays as a chasing sniper that plays pugs whenever he can.

 

[Dacil]

+5 Omni Points (OP) for bellicosity.

Omniscient Vent cordially invites you to perform a reading of the above post. Dinner and refreshments will be served; attire is evening casual.

casual?! PSAH i like dressing up tho =( but it's cool, this casual business allows me to make a t-shirt that says "Darklord is deep in dark ignorance and the lord of wanting to win"...maybe i'd refine that a little later

haha kidding aside, Nept brings up very good points...and I just wanted to add that how can new people feel completely comfortable after reading this thread? knowing that 1) they probably won't even get picked, 2) if they captain yes they get a spot but then they have to worry about 2a.) losing, b/c the jist they get is that winning is most important and 2b.) toxicity/gossipy little g...guys...(still sighing about this) as mentioned before can be picked up on pretty quickly and on top of all this, the general pressures of being a newer player and worrying about bringing the team down...we were all new players once, so please just think about this.

side note: i've seen new people (two yesterday) get unnecessary cruelty from "pro" players and one even asked "...how is this game new player friendly when these people are focused on team balance and having a 'pro' game", when what they should have done is help the person, which I tried to...granted I wouldn't put it past a person in this community to make an alias and start pretending to be a new blood and start saying this stuff (even though that's crazy, but people in this community have proved to be sometimes) it seemed to me it was legit, but that feedback right there is pathetic....people need to start acting kinder towards newer players, yes even the annoying or spammy ones, in return they may respect you and listen to your advice to maybe stop spamming. kindness usually gets you respect and respect can lead to a player who will listen

 

[Skepsis]

Ok, to get a good Pick-Up game its not about picking all the good Players on your team because its not going to be fun and it would probably kill the PUG. Try to get a fun, Not stacked, Teams and its most likely to be a fun PUG. Some people who captain take good players because of there reputation of not losing...(He who must not be named.) Its not about picking the same Stack of People who are very skilled, But to Pick People who need to learn how to play at the same skill rate as the rest of the community. Cause/Same New People not being picked once for Pick-Ups, Effect/That Person is most likely not going to play Pick-Ups again. I know we all want competition in Pug's but try not to stack your whole Team of great Players and try picking up new players.I just posted to speak of whats in mind and tell you why I think Pugs are being Ruined.
But, I see People arguing and hating on other People. Drop The Ignorance.

 

[Redvan]

As for the wall of text, I will reply once my ass stops hurting.

got 'em good nept!

(honestly, I'd have not admitted to that on the interwebs)

 

[Delph]

side note: i've seen new people (two yesterday) get unnecessary cruelty from "pro" players and one even asked "...how is this game new player friendly when these people are focused on team balance and having a 'pro' game", when what they should have done is help the person, which I tried to...granted I wouldn't put it past a person in this community to make an alias and start pretending to be a new blood and start saying this stuff (even though that's crazy, but people in this community have proved to be sometimes) it seemed to me it was legit, but that feedback right there is pathetic....people need to start acting kinder towards newer players, yes even the annoying or spammy ones, in return they may respect you and listen to your advice to maybe stop spamming. kindness usually gets you respect and respect can lead to a player who will listen

FINALLY someone brought this up! I have seen a ton of new players come into legions, play for a few days, and then end up quitting bcuz 90% of the people playing now could care less about helping out new people. In fact it almost seems like new players are intentionally being pushed away.... maybe some of our so called "pros" are feeling threatened by new blood?? In the end... everyone just needs to be nice! Being a douc** doesnt help anyone, or make you look cool... u just get shoved into deep dark.... nevermind XD

 

[Propkid]

Captains... god, the idea still surprises me. Not that I have a lot of organized gaming experience but so far L:O is the only game where there's so much stress on the captains. In other places there are only 'those who pick the teams', then the team gets along by telling each other what is up and where, what would everyone want others to do, when do they need help and best from who etc. There's no one person in charge, except the bossy clan leader occasionally, but heck even the idea of a clan leader got called off (I'm talking about my 'friend' clan in CoD5) and there was the leader team, made up of 5 equally privileged players.

Anyway, relying on one man to command the whole team during a PuG is a bad idea, especially with Blade Run, and consequently larger teams coming up. Sure, there should be the one who picks the teams and perhaps assigns team roles, but that's about it. After the game has started things should sort themselves out; everyone should have a right to say what do they think about the current situation. Let the player's own authority and reputation support his ideas, not his instantaneous status of a captain. Eg. during euro PuGs if Application, a well-known HoF calls for a better defence then I'm sure someone will listen even if there's no captain to 'confirm' that need.

 

[phanakapan]

Darklord, you do realize it was 451 who captained when your team walk capped on us and we all told him he was a horrible captain. You also realize after going down a man within 5 minutes we stopped trying and some people actually escorted your walking capper instead of killing him because it was more fun. Hell our hof was capping rofl. It was actually a lot of fun all around. 451 shouldn't be allowed to captain though...

 

[By-Tor]

I guess it'd be too much to ask to have the 2 captains work together to assign fair teams? Worth trying? That way less stress on each captain and the teams should have a much better chance at being competitive.

 

[kasityolainen]

Oh boy! Years pass, but I'm glad to see the circle jerks still prevail. Makes me miss the community. The attitude that you can only have fun if you win made the game insufferable, at least on the EU side. Yes, I'm looking at you PROFESSIONAL LEEJUNZ ATHLETES, who voice spam all day long, stack teams and leave if you happen to be on the losing side.

As has been brought up previously, I also enjoy the elitist attitude in the community, especially from people who really don't have any reason to be arrogant of their apparent mad skillz. I guess it's cool to be tough guys in a community that barely has more active players than a polka band.

"But käsi, you're just describing pubs, pugs are like way past cool dude!"

Yeah, pugs were just so much fun, that I couldn't handle it anymore. For the sake of my own health, I had to promise myself to only play with the boring people in team.fi and null, where the most exciting thing that has happened was when Robke pasted a link to a website filled with shoelace tips. That was a fun day!

I can totally see how an attitude of "Win or GTFO" will improve the prestige that is pugs. Add that to the general newblood bashing atmosphere, and you're all set! If this game only had bots, it would be perfect.

You could set them to very easy and you'd always win! Unless you're Disci, in which case there is no hope.

Then you also wouldn't need to tolerate those pesky teapots, who would only ruin your street cred.

A man can dream!

 

[Propkid]

POST

Wait, you quit? "Years pass"? When did you quit? And why? (community is a lame-ass excuse :])

Also, +1 on kasi's post. In case you didn't notice, it relates to the OP.

 

[Jordahan]

I guess it'd be too much to ask to have the 2 captains work together to assign fair teams? Worth trying? That way less stress on each captain and the teams should have a much better chance at being competitive.

Fun is overrated, it's all about winning man.