Raider class change?
- Thread starter Mahidhar
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Daphinicus
Private Tester
That happens to me all the time; something suddenly feels different, like it's easier to ski in Outrider than before or something equally unquantifiable, and then I'll ask Mabe and DeadGuy and they'll slap some sense into me. =)
Chances are, you've just been playing Outriders a lot recently, and when you switched back to Raider, you subconsciously missed the OR's agility. It's easier to forget the feel of something than we'd sometimes like to think!
I'm trying to keep tabs on gameplay changes that are being done, so I can post in a ChangeLog thread when they're implemented. Hopefully from here on out, you won't have to worry about not knowing if/when a change has been implemented.
Chances are, you've just been playing Outriders a lot recently, and when you switched back to Raider, you subconsciously missed the OR's agility. It's easier to forget the feel of something than we'd sometimes like to think!
I'm trying to keep tabs on gameplay changes that are being done, so I can post in a ChangeLog thread when they're implemented. Hopefully from here on out, you won't have to worry about not knowing if/when a change has been implemented.
Daphinicus
Private Tester
This thread got locked for a little while because the mods thought Mahid's question had been answered, but as it turns out, that's not the case; he just contacted me, and continues to be worried about how the Raider feels heavier. He told me that "the Raider has become more sticky with it's movement. It feels like more weight has been added to the class, and now feels slightly closer to the Sentinel's." He said that he had "asked a few people around, about the change in the Raider's maneuverability. Some said they don't really notice a change, and others say that the class feels like a Sentinel."
So here's an attempt to set the record straight, and the thread will stay open so that folks have a chance to weigh in.
What Mahid's describing about the feel of the Raider -- the weight of it having changed -- is something I've felt as well, but it has nothing to do with the Raider specifically; it has to do with the Tick Rate Mabel talked about in his blog post last month: http://www.legionsoverdrive.com/blog/2010/12/23/the-netfix/. I've questioned Mabel and DeadGuy repeatedly since then about how the physics seem different, and as it turns out, the feel of changes in physics is all due to the Netfix.
The funny thing about the Netfix is, it didn't actually change the physics code at all. You still jet up JUST as high as you did before, and you still accelerate to the exact same speeds, as they are measured by the little speedometer at the top of your screen. What the Netfix did was accelerate the perceived pace of the game, overall. When information is being sent more rapidly between your system and the server, changes in your game state (whether you're flying, running, changing direction, firing, etc.) are all calculated quicker. This calculation means that, after you let go of the jet button, the server recognizes it more quickly. It means that when you hit 88m/s, it actually feels faster than it used to! You're not going any faster relative to the speed of the rest of the game, but it still feels faster than before.
I've experienced the difference between the old and the new many times since the Netfix, because the map editor we use still uses the old tick rate. EVERYTHING in that Editor feels more "floaty." That doesn't mean it actually IS more floaty; it just feels that way, because everything in the game is happening slower. It's a weird distinction, I know; I was nervous about it, because I didn't want to be designing maps with ski routes that worked in the map editor, only to fall apart in the actual game.
That's when Mabel and DeadGuy set me straight. The actual in-game physics never changed; everything was just happening FASTER, because of the change in tick rate. Thus, when you fall in-game, you feel heavier because you're falling faster than you did before, but then, so's everyone else. Everyone's also jetting up faster, firing more accurately, moving across the map more quickly, and doing a whole bunch of other things that make the game, overall, feel "tighter" than it did before. But the limitations on every class are still the same, and thusly, so's the balance.
Yeah, it might take some getting used to, but the change was made with gameplay in mind.
So here's an attempt to set the record straight, and the thread will stay open so that folks have a chance to weigh in.
What Mahid's describing about the feel of the Raider -- the weight of it having changed -- is something I've felt as well, but it has nothing to do with the Raider specifically; it has to do with the Tick Rate Mabel talked about in his blog post last month: http://www.legionsoverdrive.com/blog/2010/12/23/the-netfix/. I've questioned Mabel and DeadGuy repeatedly since then about how the physics seem different, and as it turns out, the feel of changes in physics is all due to the Netfix.
The funny thing about the Netfix is, it didn't actually change the physics code at all. You still jet up JUST as high as you did before, and you still accelerate to the exact same speeds, as they are measured by the little speedometer at the top of your screen. What the Netfix did was accelerate the perceived pace of the game, overall. When information is being sent more rapidly between your system and the server, changes in your game state (whether you're flying, running, changing direction, firing, etc.) are all calculated quicker. This calculation means that, after you let go of the jet button, the server recognizes it more quickly. It means that when you hit 88m/s, it actually feels faster than it used to! You're not going any faster relative to the speed of the rest of the game, but it still feels faster than before.
I've experienced the difference between the old and the new many times since the Netfix, because the map editor we use still uses the old tick rate. EVERYTHING in that Editor feels more "floaty." That doesn't mean it actually IS more floaty; it just feels that way, because everything in the game is happening slower. It's a weird distinction, I know; I was nervous about it, because I didn't want to be designing maps with ski routes that worked in the map editor, only to fall apart in the actual game.
That's when Mabel and DeadGuy set me straight. The actual in-game physics never changed; everything was just happening FASTER, because of the change in tick rate. Thus, when you fall in-game, you feel heavier because you're falling faster than you did before, but then, so's everyone else. Everyone's also jetting up faster, firing more accurately, moving across the map more quickly, and doing a whole bunch of other things that make the game, overall, feel "tighter" than it did before. But the limitations on every class are still the same, and thusly, so's the balance.
Yeah, it might take some getting used to, but the change was made with gameplay in mind.
Mahidhar
Member
Although, I do understand that netfix changed the perception and feel of a lot of things, I do not think that was the cause for Raider's maneuverability level. When was the netfix implemented? Definitely not yesterday. The difference I and the others have felt, was from yesterday. It's a slight change, hence most people don't even feel it.
Well, if you say it hasn't changed, I'll go along with that, even though others have voiced about the issue to me, when I asked.
Well, if you say it hasn't changed, I'll go along with that, even though others have voiced about the issue to me, when I asked.
Karnage
Private Tester
I do not play raider; I play heavy (always) but I would like to add something to this thread and that is that there is growing concern in the community that the game is being 'tweaked' to favor those who like to use the chain gun and who like to use the outrider. This is of course, simply a perception and cannot be proved definitively but I have to say that, as a heavy class player, nothing seems to have been altered in my favor of late while the outrider now seems horribly overpowered in the sense that it can float forever, is highly manoeuvrable and even seems to be able to take more hits. The question I am asking is not whether this has actually happened or not but whether the devs more or less all play the lighter classes and whether there could be an unconscious trend to 'tweak' things in favour of the lighter classes. I know I am not the only one who is saying this and I am not being accusatory when I say it, but I do feel it needs to be said and asked. If I was a developer, playing with the class I do and with my customary high ping, I know I would have to be very careful not to change things slightly in favour of the heavy and the grenade. The grenade suits high pingers because of the nature of the timing and the fact that it is a 'safe distance from chain guns' weapon. Please note that I am voicing the opinion of more than one person so please don't shoot the messenger. I also remain grateful and appreciative of everything the devs have done and continue to do for us, the community.
Vinzyboy23
Member
The Raider DID felt heavier but it feels like the jet on the Raider lasts more longer than the old one.
Daphinicus
Private Tester
I'll be honest, I haven't seen any of the devs play heavies very often. But there's a catch: I haven't seen any significant group of players playing heavies. They're a very niche class right now, effective primarily on defense. A select handful (and I'm basically just talking about Homingun) can actually effectively chase with the Sent, which is utterly bewildering to me, but in general, unless you're trying to have a little fun or step outside the norm, most players play Raider to duel/LO and Outrider to cap/chase. That's a pretty large portion of the player base, so it makes sense that we would cater to them first.
That said...
We're NOT catering to them first, because we haven't been making any changes to classes. Aside from the Netfix, there have been ZERO alterations to the feel of the game, nor have there ever been changes to any class's physics. That means that:
Everyone has the same energy, the same health, and the same mass they had when Legions: Overdrive was first released.
Yes, there have been changes. The Chaingun's damage was reduced from 8 per shell to 5 per shell (which means the CG does LESS damage than it did before). Explosions' blast radii were shifted around a bit, but the sum total was that the splash damage was reduced slightly. We released Gorge and re-released a modified version of Core, and have more new and returning maps in the pipeline. We've worked on getting more stable servers up and running so that folks have good experiences in both PUBs and PUGs. Mabe made the netfix, which affected everyone across the board. And we've been working behind the scenes on all sorts of new stuff that's not yet ready for release, but still has us all sorts of excited.
But one thing we haven't done is buffed any specific armor class. Outriders are supposed to be able to float forever under the right hands, but they still only have 75 health. That means a single MA takes away two-thirds of their health pool, and basically anything after that is pain and agony. The Outrider can't take more hits; people are just learning to dodge more and get hit less.
Again, everyone's going to feel heavier since the Netfix. Feeling "heavier" menas you're falling faster, which is true. But you're doing everything else faster, too: jetting, skiing, shooting, and so forth. The pace of the game was accelerated slightly, but all weapons are now more accurate, and the game feels tighter, more contained and fluid.
DOS4/GW
Member
As primarily a raider player, and I do sometimes feel that it feels heavier than before. This may be due to the netfix or the way rocket jumps are now handled; I rocket jump all the time, and since the change I'm still trying to unlearn two years worth of doing it a certain way.
I can say this: The agility difference between the raider and the outrider feels significantly higher than the difference between the raider and the sentinel. Same thing goes for the amount of time they can stay in the air.
Outriders have always been harder to hit; harder to chain, harder to MA, and now they're even harder to groundpound thanks to the reduced splash damage. Exactly what is the outrider's weakness? Less ammo? Reduced armor? Do these even matter? Any kind of fight rarely takes more ammo than the outrider carries, and since anything short of a direct hit does so little damage these days...
I think people are getting wind of this, as I'm noticing that a lot of people who usually play a variety of classes are now choosing outrider and using it exclusively.
I can say this: The agility difference between the raider and the outrider feels significantly higher than the difference between the raider and the sentinel. Same thing goes for the amount of time they can stay in the air.
Outriders have always been harder to hit; harder to chain, harder to MA, and now they're even harder to groundpound thanks to the reduced splash damage. Exactly what is the outrider's weakness? Less ammo? Reduced armor? Do these even matter? Any kind of fight rarely takes more ammo than the outrider carries, and since anything short of a direct hit does so little damage these days...
I think people are getting wind of this, as I'm noticing that a lot of people who usually play a variety of classes are now choosing outrider and using it exclusively.
Daphinicus
Private Tester
This may well be the case; I haven't asked Mabe about the exact numbers. But whatever the case may be, it's been that way from the start. Doesn't mean we can't change it, but y'all should know that we haven't changed it yet. =)
There might be something to this argument. To my knowledge, the OR's weakness is supposed to be its fragility. Whatever the case, the reduced splash damage could well have had the unintended effect of buffing the lights. It's a worthwhile discussion to have.
Karnage
Private Tester
Well, thanks for clearing that up. As I said, I was not trying to claim any definitive proof but there has been a feeling of late that this has been happening. Knowing the facts helps to put to bed all the speculation and I am glad that I know now. It will be interesting to see how the problem that DOS is referring to gets dealt with.
sugardemon
Member
I play heavy almost exclusively myself (offense, defense, chase, cap, completely useless clowning around, whatever) so I'll toss in a few observations.
-OR maneuverability seems better than I remember. My guess is the netfix just made them more responsive, but they're much harder to hit than anything else, even if they do explode nicely when you do land that MA.
-OR is (possibly due to above) is much more popular (and therefore more annoying) than I ever. Possibly skewing my perception with some players who used to play Raider switching to the lighter class, but I think I'm right.
-Sentinel hasn't changed much at all. Skiing took some adjusting to (as well as removing some rust off my skills) after the netfix, but the Heavy has always been really touchy when it comes to maintaining speed.
-Better ping/response from the netfix means big, slow, shiny, golden targets like me get MA'd a lot more often. Sometimes it feels like the extra health is no longer offsetting the loss of agility, but thats me goofing off and getting pounded, not PuG games (I seem to miss those lateley).
-Raider... eh, haven't messed with it much. I guess it works?
Still good times playing. I'm not going to say anything needs to be changed, since there's still so much work to be done. I just wanted to provide the feedback I could.
-OR maneuverability seems better than I remember. My guess is the netfix just made them more responsive, but they're much harder to hit than anything else, even if they do explode nicely when you do land that MA.
-OR is (possibly due to above) is much more popular (and therefore more annoying) than I ever. Possibly skewing my perception with some players who used to play Raider switching to the lighter class, but I think I'm right.
-Sentinel hasn't changed much at all. Skiing took some adjusting to (as well as removing some rust off my skills) after the netfix, but the Heavy has always been really touchy when it comes to maintaining speed.
-Better ping/response from the netfix means big, slow, shiny, golden targets like me get MA'd a lot more often. Sometimes it feels like the extra health is no longer offsetting the loss of agility, but thats me goofing off and getting pounded, not PuG games (I seem to miss those lateley).
-Raider... eh, haven't messed with it much. I guess it works?
Still good times playing. I'm not going to say anything needs to be changed, since there's still so much work to be done. I just wanted to provide the feedback I could.
Daphinicus
Private Tester
People saying "I've talked with people, and we all agree" doesn't mean as much to the developers as individuals speaking up about their thoughts. The more who chime in and take the time to say, "This is a problem," the better!
The fact is, if Outriders are becoming more and more prevalent, and Raiders and Sents feel like they're getting the short end of the stick, then as DOS pointed out, making some updates to counter the effects of the Netfix could well be worth our time.
Keep the input coming, folks. It IS valuable!
The fact is, if Outriders are becoming more and more prevalent, and Raiders and Sents feel like they're getting the short end of the stick, then as DOS pointed out, making some updates to counter the effects of the Netfix could well be worth our time.
Keep the input coming, folks. It IS valuable!
Daphinicus
Private Tester
/hug
CylinderSpray
New Member
Because Legions allows for only slow directional changes (slower still if you're moving quickly), it's highly unlikely that the netcode changes produced increased responsiveness; and anyone "experiencing" or extolling such changes is probably experiencing massive placebo effect.
I've noticed no changes to raider maneuverability, though in previous iterations, I've convinced myself that the game had been slowed. Normally, that's a result of having played other, faster games and not having played Legions for awhile. That being said, I understand completely how the general Legions community suspects such changes, especially given the development team's history of silent changes (the outrider health boost, or the original splash change).
I've noticed no changes to raider maneuverability, though in previous iterations, I've convinced myself that the game had been slowed. Normally, that's a result of having played other, faster games and not having played Legions for awhile. That being said, I understand completely how the general Legions community suspects such changes, especially given the development team's history of silent changes (the outrider health boost, or the original splash change).
Mabeline
God-Tier
All due respect, if you think halving the timestep of an euler-integrated simulation doesn't significantly change the feel then you haven't thought about it much. I've played both versions (a lot), and the pre-netfix game is almost unbearably unresponsive compared to the current. I'll see if we can put the old version up for a weekend so you can all shut up about that.
DOS4/GW
Member
Harsh, dude. I understand that hearing people gripe all the time can be frustrating, but if you don't want our comments about the game and rather we'd all shut up, perhaps you should take down the forums.
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