Viable Legions Vehicles

[Volt Cruelerz]

We're all familiar with the old vehicle/no vehicle debate. The point of this is to focus on and come up with (if possible), an idea for a vehicle that would actually be useful in the game without being overpowered. I currently know of none that properly fits this bill, though if one could be created that did, I would be fine with it (hence this thread).

Note: This is not a thread for discussing moveable bases

Now, first the purpose of a vehicle must be defined. A vehicle must be useful to a player by granting him something he does not normally have. In most games, this comes down to firepower, speed (and thus agility), and defense. Unfortunately, in Legions, we already have taken speed to the extreme. This means that any vehicle would have to be either faster (making normal skiing pointless), or a tank which poses its own problems.

Just as I noted in my Tethering thread, there are problems associated with being a slow and relatively immobile object in Legions when everyone else is zipping around. Even the Ghost from Halo would be doomed in Legions simply because it cannot move fast enough to withstand the assault from aerial opponents.

The other obvious, yet often forgotten bit is that you have to be able to destroy it without one of your own.


The only thing I can think of that *might* fulfill this requirement would be some sort of "wing" that basically hooks onto the back of the Legionnaire that allows for hovering and rotates the Legionnaire 90 degrees to make the down/up jets acceleration/deceleration. Provides for something we don't have by default (forward acceleration while in the air). Now, to make it killable...

This is once again just an idea, but perhaps the RL could lock onto a player with this wing attached to them, giving it limited tracking ability. I know the general tracking RL's don't work, but against an even more mobile "vehicle," it might work.

The above was an example and as I've said before, the trick isn't to try to copy something over from a previous game. Legions is so fast that traditional vehicles probably won't work. This thread is for the idea generation of ideas that have potential to work in Legions.

Note: as workable ideas are created, this post will be updated to accommodate them.

 

[NightHawk043]

I'd quite like to see a gunship again. (for those who don't know, a heavy transport that can move several heavies around, at a faster speed than Most people playing as heavies can move at.) If one of these comes hovering over your base, you better destroy it quick, because 5 heavies raining fire (clusters/mortars) down tends to distract the defense a bit. To make it not OP, there's also the option of missile/AA turrets. To make the Turrets not OP, you could also make it that said turrets can't attack players on their own, (at least not without certain conditions).

Also, one of the main things vehicles can give that normal legionnaires don't already have is permanent flight.

 

[Mike]

The "wing" is a great idea.

 

[Mhi200]

I'd quite like to see a gunship again.

I've always thought this. Though one of you forum-going aussies shot me down when I said it ages ago. I guess L:O is different lol

To make the Turrets not OP, you could also make it that said turrets can't attack players on their own, (at least not without certain conditions).

How about they can only aim at 30-40 degrees from the vertical? 2-4(depending on how powerful) of these on the base should be able to cover the airspace above the base, assuming the gunship gets sufficient height to actually be able to rain down clusters.

Also, how about you have a couple of (small)spots on the ship which require little damage to cripple it? Like maybe a spot with the health of a sentinel on the bottom, and the health of a raider on top? Maybe a bit more, becasue a gunship would only be viable in a 32-player game, meaning several LD with half-decent aim could send a few rockets into it each...

 

[NightHawk043]

I'd quite like the idea of the top being weaker, as it'd make sense that they'd shield the bottom more from enemy fire.
It'd add a skill element to flying above and hitting it from above.
Unfortunately, every hitbox you add means more code.
It's a pity, because personally I've always liked the idea of having super weak spots. Like a small coolant vent on either side near the engines.

They did it in battlefield 2142 (and possibly others, I never tested it).
If you were trying to kill a battlewalker with the standard engineers laser guided missile, it'd take 4 shots if you were hitting the main body, 2 shots if you aimed for the weak points and 1 shot if you were able to run under it, crouch to avoid the explosion and shoot up into one of the very small vents on the underside. (in fact, that spot is the only spot on a battlewalker that you can shoot with bullet weapons to cause damage.

*sigh*
Again, pity there's no magic code-template that could be easily used to make a 5 min solution.
(afaik)

 

[Volt Cruelerz]

Gunship might work. Don't really want it to cause heavy capping though as it seems its purpose is more for distracting the defense or defending its own base. And it would be nice if the top was weaker and maybe a few spots on the bottom/sides that a sniper could use to bring it down in a shot or two. If they were on the sides, the midfield sniper would probably be more practical as they'd be able to shoot them down before they got to your base. However, multiple hitboxes on the same object does mean more code...

 

[Daphinicus]

The Wing concept echoes gameplay from one of the first FPS+Z games ever made: Microsoft's Outwars. In Outwars, every player had the ability to extend a set of wings, Buzz Lightyear-style, out from their packs. Those wings essentially did what Volt outlined: They changed "jet up" to "jet forward," and turned the player from a soldier into a glider (with basic glider physics to boot). This increased mobility tremendously and allowed traversal of maps that were often made up of mesas or islands, but severely limited turning radii (as you now had the physics of a glider, you had to turn in slow arcs). I don't recall if you could even fire your weapons while in glider mode, but if you could, you wouldn't have had the same aiming fidelity, which helped balance the movement advantage nicely.

I won't lie; extendable glider wings were the one and only thing I missed from Outwars when Dynamix finally went ahead and released Tribes 1, and that longing has never gone away. I could easily see something similar in Legions, though it'd have to have some restrictions put in for balance.

1. Gliders would probably need to have a slower top speed than skiiers, perhaps on the order of about 120 m/s or so. Still very fast (though you'd have to get up to speed over time), but nothing compared to what a good capper can accomplish.
2. Use of the Wing would have to come with either reduced armor, weaponry, or both. Thus, it would likely have to be limited to outriders only, and perhaps it would take up a weapon slot.
3. Any aerial vehicle would need to be implemented, in my opinion, alongside some new base defense components, such as turrets or homing missile launchers usable by raiders or sentinels.

These are just my idle thoughts; they don't at all reflect what the dev team's working on. Would 'twer it were so. =)

 

[Volt Cruelerz]

I wouldn't say cap it at 120. Maybe 180 or so, but perhaps it should have a minimum takeoff velocity of, say 88 m/s? That way, you'd have to still gain some speed in order to even get up, which is realistic anyways. Also, if you got below 88, the wing would deactivate and you'd switch back to standard controls. I'd say the restrictions would be as follows:

1. glider physics
2. no manual weapon aiming. You fire where you are going.
3. it might have to be on the Outrider or some variation of it, limiting armor to minimal levels.
4. no flag holding/grabbing while using it.
5. flight ceiling of about how high up you can get on the base halfpipes on Gorge before you instantly die upon the next landing (just when fog starts to appear at the base), or maybe a bit higher.

And I also think you'd have to physically go up to it and "dock" with it rather than just have it be part of the back by default. If we go with the OR, then maybe we could make it hook up to the central docking mechanism looking thing on the backpack.

As far as shooting it down, I'd just say make the RL track any player actively using a wing (maybe have it go through a locking procedure as per most sci fi games before the rocket would actually track the target).

I'm also assuming that you'd just use whatever guns you have by default as the weapons during flight (rockets for dogfights, which would be awesome; GL for ground assault), though what would happen in regards to health regeneration? Perhaps allow it regenerate, but make it do so more slowly than an OR does by default.

 

[Mhi200]

I think about 30 degrees of movement for horizontal aiming, maybe a bit more vertically, might work. should be tested before giving no 'manual weapon aiming'.
Also, instead of taking a weapon slot, how about replace OD?
Instead of pressing R for overdrive at velocity warning, press it to take off? (I assume you would be able to activate while falling, whether you could pull up before hitting the ground or not idk, depends on angle)

 

[Daphinicus]

Also, instead of taking a weapon slot, how about replace OD?

Buy that man a soda. I'm hitting myself for not thinking of that. =)

 

[Volt Cruelerz]

Buy that man a soda. I'm hitting myself for not thinking of that. =)

Same thing I was thinking (hence the 88 m/s in my post)

 

[NightHawk043]

You just want a soda volt

In regards to the idea of any rockets auto locking on after you get tone, There still needs a way for the pilot to save himself, other than hoping to be out of range or getting a hill/tower between you and it, so I'd suggest that either the rocket isn't so manoeuvrable that it would hit you no matter what (i.e. make it so that a sharp turn might let you miss it), or, and this is my preferred option, the rocket loses lock if you retract your wings (slash detach from them and drop, if the wings were something you attach to) and go back into normal jet/ski mode. I'm imagining fancy maneuvers of retracting wings and dodging, then reopening.

On that topic, I take it once a rocket got a lock on you, you'd get a warning that it was coming? Like t2? First a slight warning when someones locked on, and then a crazy warning when the shot's on it's way.

 

[Mhi200]

In regards to the idea of any rockets auto locking on after you get tone, There still needs a way for the pilot to save himself, other than hoping to be out of range or getting a hill/tower between you and it, so I'd suggest that either the rocket isn't so manoeuvrable that it would hit you no matter what (i.e. make it so that a sharp turn might let you miss it), or, and this is my preferred option, the rocket loses lock if you retract your wings (slash detach from them and drop, if the wings were something you attach to) and go back into normal jet/ski mode. I'm imagining fancy maneuvers of retracting wings and dodging, then reopening.

On that topic, I take it once a rocket got a lock on you, you'd get a warning that it was coming? Like t2? First a slight warning when someones locked on, and then a crazy warning when the shot's on it's way.

I agree with all of this. I imagine there would be a certain time before you could re-activate if the wings do end up being a built-in thing, but I think this could be a very balanced and useful system.

 

[Immanent]

OMGNOTHIS SUCKS D:

Legions with vehicles makes it like ALL the other games...

 

[NightHawk043]

OMGNOTHIS SUCKS D:

Legions with vehicles makes it like ALL the other games...

Immanent. Guns make it like all the other fps games to the same extent.
The ability to walk WASD and point and shoot makes it like all other fps games.
Come up with better reasoning than that, don't just say omg vehicles no!
If you read, we're specifically trying to look for vehicles that will make the game more unique. We're not suggesting jeeps and tanks, be they hoverjeeps or not.
Keep in mind, we're suggesting something that will Add gameplay elements, make the game more enjoyable by giving it more positions to try and play, and we're trying to make sure it would avoid ruining game flow. (Like the TV vehicles for example)

 

[Volt Cruelerz]

@Nighthawk's first post: maybe make stunts or whatever possible where you'd actually roll? It would be activated in the same way that the proposed dash would work. Double tap "A" for instance, and you roll left. Obviously there'd have to be a delay between rolls, but it still might be OP...
But making rockets go around corners is just insane. They would have to take a curved path or you will die as soon as two-ish defenders lock onto you. If it passes by you, it would need to lose its lock and shouldn't try making a second pass.

@Nighthawk's second post: well said.

 

[Cherubael]

First, in my opinion maps are too small for any good use of any "vehicle"
>>>Why ? than just because :
-vehicles are bigger than legionnary that's inevitable
-a vehicle is supposed to go faster because is has more energy ? or a vehicle is supposed to be armored and go slower ?
then it would not add "new stuff" because we have already sentinel/outrider...
-I think some ppl would just go rambo anywhere on the map and it would be impossible to play. (just think about a vehicle standing on the flag, making it impossible to take, or a "super camper" vehicle that prevent cappers/defenders to move as they want....).
Vehicles would not make legions better. It's "legions" you see ? it would not be "legions : overdrive" if we added vehicles i think.

What would replace that idea (and be similar in another way) is, again in my opinion, new kind of class/weapon.
What would make legions better is new weapons for example.
we have CG/RL/GL/LR but they are all "standard" weapons, we can have them in almost all other games : a cg for close combat, laser rifle for long range, RL/GL, if we don't talk adbout mid-air, well we find that in all fps-like games.
I would prefer to have new weapons, that require more skills but are more powerful, that would make the game funnier (but harder) to play.
some examples :

1-imagine a sort of "shock shotgun" when you shoot at som1 it would drain some of you energy and push the guy away from you, dealing him a bit damage but throwing him with great force. to prevent ppl abusing this weapon, we might make it usable every xx seconds and with limited ammo.
for outrider : this weapon and a CG or LR
raider : shotgun + rl / shotgun+ gl
sentinel : shotgun + rl+ cg / shotgun +gl +cg

2-what i would like is a "super canon" weapon. this would be pretty hard to use : you would have to go at 100+mph at least to activate it, and the faster you goes, the higher the damages dealt are (instant kill if you reach 200 ?) you would have this weapon with one ammo and a cg (that's enough). also, this kind of weapon would have a "mass effect", meaning you can kill a lot of ppl in one shot according to your speed (if you goes fast enough, then it would allow you to make damages in a larger area). to make it more funny, the cannon could be activated only if you are in overdrive...etc.
outrider : only this weapon
raider : this weapon + cg or lr
senti : this weapon +rl or gl

3-the greatest weapon that would be ever made in legions would be.....a sword (or any kind of melee weapon). i cannot remeber who had an idea on FE:L forums but i appreciated it. yes, a nice melee weapon would be welcome ^^ it would be perfect for humiliation kills (hehe..). the "sword" would be an electric or laser sword (must make it not like stars war swords) and have infinite ammo. Also it would deal high damage (one hit kill on outrider) Or it would drain enemy's life and energy (30%). It would hit every 0.8 second.
outrider : this + anything
raider : this + 2 normal weapons (but not rl and gl at the same time)
senti : this + 2 weapon (one specialist).

I dunno if that helped but it still ideas...tell me what you think about it.

 

[Daphinicus]

[...]

Cherub, you're right that the current maps probably wouldn't support vehicles. But we are working on new maps, y'know. =)

And as for the rest of your post, this isn't the right thread for weapon discussion. Take weapon discussion to a weapon discussion thread, like this.

 

[Cherubael]

this isn't the right thread for weapon discussion

I know sorry, it was just an idea I decided to post here (just to say I'd prefer weapons to be added instead of vehicles).
You say you are working on new maps, if thoses maps are big enough (like 10-15 kilometers +) it would be much more intersting to add vehicles but right now we can only think about eventuals vehicles viable on eventuals map.

 

[Daphinicus]

I know sorry, it was just an idea I decided to post here (just to say I'd prefer weapons to be added instead of vehicles).
You say you are working on new maps, if thoses maps are big enough (like 10-15 kilometers +) it would be much more intersting to add vehicles but right now we can only think about eventuals vehicles viable on eventuals map.

Any suggestion like this is laced with speculation, because there's no way to actually know how it plays until it gets put in-game. Let's just assume, then, that whatever vehicles are put in place are used in maps big enough -- and interesting enough -- for them.