OSniping Accusations ......

[Metreon]

I will say that the change from the old charge-up sniper rifle to the new ammo-based one has made it a load easier to hit moving targets, and similarly more difficult to kill base loiterers.
As a rule, I generally only do that if I'm *really* bored myself, or if there's a reason to, such as an incoming base raid or grabber.

 

[trinium]

so ... that must be every time you play ... you seem to have no problem hitting spawners <3
ps why did up an ancient thread ?

 

[jeffjn]

i have a question I often use the defender to drop little grenades near the flag and wait until somebody gets close and release the trigger, but most of the time when i try to do it the people on the team i'm in destroy's them am I doing something wrong is that a bad idea or what cus i don't get it.

 

[Metreon]

@trinium: Nobody has trouble hitting spawners. Just like nobody has trouble complaining.
I only shoot them, personally, when I'm bored and there's nothing else going on, or to distract them.
Solution: Don't sit still. Simple as that- if you loiter for a long time after the spawnshield is up, you're asking for it (to paraphrase a poster a page or two back.)

However, my ability to hit moving targets is pretty well-established, regardless of the disbelief you love to make known.

I do agree this thread is getting old and I will likely get a new one going on this topic once the semester's up and I can respond in a timely manner. It's not dead though.

@jeffjn: Wrong thread, but I'll answer you. That is not a good strategy. It's one of those things where you occasionally get lucky, but usually do not. Generally, it's far too hard to time right. Even when you have 6 enemies raiding your base you never know when the grabber will come. The cluster 'nades are generally a bad idea to use if there are tons of friendlies bouncing around you in a firefight. I find them far more useful against approaching enemies in front of the base, or as an offensive weapon.

A good rule to follow: If something you do is more likely to hit friend than foe, don't do it.

 

[Abandoned]

[...] I will likely get a new one going on this topic once the semester's up and I can respond in a timely manner. It's not dead though.[...]

Don't, it's only going to add clutter and most probably will get merged with this thread.
I'm not a fan of o-sniping, I don't see the purpose of it - unless its flag related.

 

[Metreon]

Perhaps. I generally do keep it flag-related though, unless its one of those games where most of the server occupants are basecamping. My first priorities as an osniper are to nail returning cappers or cover my team's grabbers, both of which I'm reasonably good at. Second comes softening enemy offense as they leave, or distracting defenders from my team's incoming raid. The bottom of my priorities list is to act as a diversion (which, if none of the above apply, is to be an irritant that draws enemy D to me.) That, again, is a rarity, despite what some individuals will say.

Overall, it's a good and helpful tactic if applied strategically, something I try to do. People who are on teams with me tend to appreciate me being the last obstacle before the enemy scores (though that often takes time, and provided they aren't grief mongers, of course.)

 

[Maxboyzzz]

Bully Sniper all!

 

[Redvan]

Flag related sniping = Sniping those with red triangles. Whether they be LO, LD, HoF, Cappers, if they're on the enemy team, they're (if they're a competent player) doing something flag related. Snipe'em all I say. Snipe'em all.

 

[cgltower]

I was accused, and swiftly judged by a teammate, of osniping on my first try at a US server the other night. The first time i'd heard of that term. I get it, dont snipe those just spawning. But once flying around your own base, you're a target. sniping is exteremely well balanced from IA days anyway - the sniper gun is relatively weak, you lose jet power from each shot, the bullet line stays for a relatively long time, and heavy's are likely to be hanging around their own base so unlikely to die from the shot. And snipers are *usually* easily found and killed. Well I find I am anyway. So the only thing for me is what I said before - dont snipe those *just* spawning, and thats it. Its more satisfying anyway to defensive snipe a weak, turbo-ing capper leaving my base with one shot!

With that definition in mind, I can stay at one point for the whole game if I want, and not o-snipe. Yet players assume I am o-sniping. And I think thats lame.

One programmatic solution maybe to instant-kill the sniper if he snipes a new spawn within, say 5 seconds. And that will resolve it for good.

 

[Metreon]

There is nothing inherently wrong with o-sniping. Don't aim for new spawns, (no rule against it but it is sort of douchey) but shooting defenders and cappers is a-ok. People rage at snipers and o-snipers in particular. It's just the culture. Don't let the rage bother you. You should be prepared for it, but don't let the ragers get you down. If you get good at it, (especially nailing cappers) none but the other team (and the occasional TK griefer) will bother you. And if you get TK'd, get a few screenshots and report the mofo.

Read this thread in its entirety, and make your own choice, I say.

 

[MJ1284]

There is nothing inherently wrong with o-sniping. Don't aim for new spawns, (no rule against it but it is sort of douchey) but shooting defenders and cappers is a-ok.

Or you could.. like, learn to play?

 

[Metreon]

Or you could.. like, learn to play?

But that's SOOOO MUUUUCH WOOOOOORRRRRK....

 

[Karnage]

Metreon you talk so much that you don't seem to 'hear' a thing. Just like rabbiting, duelling or any number of other things, o-sniping is a tactical mistake in CTF. It comes down to one simple fact: You could be doing a lot more, instead of wasting your and everyone else's time and valuable resources (yes, in an 8-person team you are a valuable resource). We are a community here and we are trying to build this game up. If you are a part of this community and you believe in the game you will try to understand teamwork better and help us to educate new people about the best ways to play the game. Instead you are helping to break it down. Please decide where you stand.

 

[Metreon]

Metreon you talk so much that you don't seem to 'hear' a thing. Just like rabbiting, duelling or any number of other things, o-sniping is a tactical mistake in CTF. It comes down to one simple fact: You could be doing a lot more, instead of wasting your and everyone else's time and valuable resources (yes, in an 8-person team you are a valuable resource). We are a community here and we are trying to build this game up. If you are a part of this community and you believe in the game you will try to understand teamwork better and help us to educate new people about the best ways to play the game. Instead you are helping to break it down. Please decide where you stand.

Jokes aside:
Frankly, it's a matter of opinion. I've done this and heard all the arguments for and against since this game has been around. I do listen. And I do play as part of a team. If I'm in a game where it's unnecessary or redundant as a tactic because of good offense on the part of my team, or another good o-sniper or chase sniper doing that work, then I don't do it. You've been in games where timely sniping of a capper robbed the other team of a cap, so don't pretend that it's a useless tactic. It CAN be useless, but the way in which I and some others apply it is not.

If I nail a capper before he gets to base, or at his base, then I buy time for one of my team's grabbers to grab the enemy flag before they can make a cap. I make the life of my team's chasers easier, by either killing or softening the capper and damaging/distracting defenders who get in their way. Yes, I could do the same in a Raider and hit them directly, but there is a certain advantage to doing this from afar- it means it takes them time to get to me and kill me, and that is time my team can exploit. I do what I do as part of a team, and a few people who have been on teams with me will agree on this point (provided they don't fear getting flamed for coming to my defense by certain parts of this community- I'll address that later.)

In any case, if I feel it's the best contribution I can make (as opposed to being another chaser, or another defender, or another capper- niches I can and have filled if I needed to) then that is what I will do. I consider the time I buy my team in the above scenarios a valuable resource.)

We can argue all year on whether it's a useful tactic or not. There are some people who agree with me that it is useful as a last chance position against enemy cappers or as a diversionary or covering tactic. There are some who agree with you and say it is at best, only an irritation that has little value beyond that. And there are some who simply play the game and don't care. And there are those who, for whatever reason, simply hate it (perhaps more because of its effectiveness in a CTF game than any perceived lack therof.)

Let's put the effectiveness argument aside, and look at your community argument.

For starts, comparing osniping to rabbiting and duelling is an unfair and out-of-context comparison. Rabbiting is almost never a useful tactic and engaging in a personal duel during a CTF (or any team) game is a completely different category. These are different animals and thus irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

(Kudos to the devs for introducing duel servers. )

I hardly think doing what I do breaks down any community. We are not the Borg. We don't have to agree on everything, but saying I am helping to break this game down is outright over the line. On top of being a blatant exaggeration, it is statements like that do a lot more damage to the relationship between community members. This is a game. The main purpose of a game is to have fun. Few things detract from fun (let alone scare away new players) like other, usually veteran players who take it exceedingly seriously to the point of accusing others of "breaking down" the entire game. You are only a part of the community, and so are those who agree with you, and so am I and those who agree with me, and so are those who are just here to cap flags, fly, and shoot. Don't presume yourself to be the voice of the whole.

A community should be accepting, tolerant, and welcoming, and spewing rhetoric like that will cause far more damage to it than any amount of o-sniping. This is a fine community that I enjoy being part of, and things like that are why I no longer play certain other games whose communities became domnated by a small cults of people who thought it was their way or the highway, and discouraged other people and newbies with that rhetoric. I am really saddened that this scholarly debate has come to this.

To borrow some fitting GWAR lyrics:

Freedom to all the people
Brave, true and strong
Freedom to all the people
Unless I think your wrong!


You asked me to decide where I stand.

I stand for sitting down, loading up Legions, and having fun, because I love this game and I love this community. Let's respect our differences, have civil talks, hop on the servers and shoot the crap out of each other.
And most of all, have fun.

In any case, I am done with this thread. I made all my arguments and my points, and taking this further would be administering further beating to an already-wrecked dead horse. It's time for beer.

 

[Disci]

Metreon you talk so much that you don't seem to 'hear' a thing. Just like rabbiting, duelling or any number of other things, o-sniping is a tactical mistake in CTF. It comes down to one simple fact: You could be doing a lot more, instead of wasting your and everyone else's time and valuable resources (yes, in an 8-person team you are a valuable resource). We are a community here and we are trying to build this game up. If you are a part of this community and you believe in the game you will try to understand teamwork better and help us to educate new people about the best ways to play the game. Instead you are helping to break it down. Please decide where you stand.

Don't go around telling people how to play the game without knowing how to do it yourself. Damn, wtf is wrong with you "o-sniping is useless" -crowd. Metreon seems to be very nice person and imho heaps more intelligent than majority in here. He clearly understands why people are playing this game and has lots of good points in his recent post.

Don't be a dick and repeat the same false mantra all the *dance* faces in here has learned in the past and are shouting it out loud on the servers when ever they get taken down by a sniper near their own base.

 

[MJ1284]

If I nail a capper before he gets to base, or at his base, then I buy time for one of my team's grabbers to grab the enemy flag before they can make a cap. I make the life of my team's chasers easier, by either killing or softening the capper and damaging/distracting defenders who get in their way.

This scenario is more on gray zone, it's not clearly O Sniping because you're harassing incoming enemy cappers/LO (which is part of Base D's job). And sniping enemy flag carrier? Hey, it gets the job done.

There are some who agree you and say it is at best, only an irritation that has little value beyond that. And there are some who simply play the game and don't care. And there are those who, for whatever reason, simply hate it (perhaps more because of its effectiveness in a CTF game than any perceived lack therof.)

Here's a common scenario coming from a person who has been playing Base D/Chaser role long before IA went down:
a) Your teammates can't arse themselves to help defense because they're stacking offense, thus leaving me only guy who has to take care of incoming cappers AND do the chasing.
b) Some a**wipe gets this great idea to climb on top of mountain and take potshots at enemy defenders... I'd like to remind you that most of the time me = team's whole defense.
c) O Sniper's teammates get the same idea and moment later I find myself dodging 5 laser beams (oh yes, old LR was sooo much BS!) while I'm suppposed to do base D and chasing on top of that.
d) I end up dead regardless & enemy llamas the flag with ease.
e) I ragequit.

This is where I harbored my sheer hatred towards O Sniping (even up to this date) and view such persons as lowest human scum on earth. I don't know what reasons others have but I guess they're walking on similar lines. Granted, the LR nerf has dwindled O Sniper numbers effectively and I'm starting to see the skill aspects involved with sniping.

But it's still occasionally frustrating because:
a) Offense/Defense stacking it still far too common sight in Public matches.
b) If enemy team's "Defense" consist of single person it's really aggrivating having to deal with one "Tee-hee trololo" skilled O Sniper (in this scenario O Sniper should be bannable offense IMO... or atleast a valid reason to call Team Shuffle vote).

Let's put the effectiveness argument aside, and look at your community argument.

For starts, comparing osniping to rabbiting and duelling is an unfair and out-of-context comparison. Rabbiting is almost never a useful tactic and engaging in a personal duel during a CTF (or any team) game is a completely different category. These are different animals and thus irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Ever considered that lack of defense OR enemy doing O Sniping is one way to aggrivate people to rabbit? If one part of teamplay isn't working & teammates won't react to "Please help out in offense, it's me vs 6 enemy def" or being completely blind to enemy flag are but few reasons why I occasionally throw my hands in air (accompanied with shrug) and stop caring about playing seriously.
What I'm getting at is that not many people seem to acknowledge that minor griefs sums up to total *chocolate cookie*fest (domino effect) and nobody is having fun anymore. O Sniping is one of these griefs (as is rabbiting & dueling in CTF, mind you) when person is doing it just for sake of grieving.

I stand for sitting down, loading up Legions, and having fun, because I love this game and I love this community. Let's respect our differences, have civil talks, hop on the servers and shoot the crap out of each other.
And most of all, have fun.

In any case, I am done with this thread. I made all my arguments and my points, and taking this further would be administering further beating to an already-wrecked dead horse. It's time for beer.

^
Hear hear, fine way to end post.

 

[Karnage]

How you can call this a scholarly debate (consider Disci's extreme lack of civility) I don't know but in the spirit of simple discourse I will reply to your (once again) unnecessarily epic post. Take the time please to observe a 'real' sniper at work. Look at Lanthus for example. Everyone respects him because he has taken the class and turned it into an art. You say you don't want to become just another capper etc. but I say you aren't even a sniper. You yourself have said as much when you point out that you are not much of a dueller etc. Do yourself a favour and follow a real sniper around for one game and see how effective he can be. You might be verbose and have numerous vague rationalisations for your behaviour but what it boils down to is that you are simply being lazy and are not learning how to use the class effectively. Our annoyance has nothing to do with your 'effectiveness' but with the pure laziness, the cowardice and the negative contribution to team play that are inherent in o-sniping.

Rabbiting and duelling in a CTF are PRECISELY related to o-sniping as regards the negative effect that they have towards the player's own team. You are taking away a player from a small team. Just like you, rabbiters and duellers THINK they are contributing something but they are wrong. But I repeat myself. You say that this is a matter of opinion and that people are free to play the way they wish but so do the rabbiters and the duellers.

I may not speak for the entire community but I can assure you that a large portion of that community will not disagree with what I say. Despite what you may think, I am not some elitist and have the interests of the game and the growth of this community at heart. We are trying to help you and inform you, not prescribe things for you, but you are so caught up in your own rationale that you cannot see out of that to what we are actually telling you. I hope one day, when you see how the game really works, when you play for a real team and get involved in matches and the like, you will begin to understand what we are trying to show you.

I must also clarify that I feel no anger towards you and that this is not a rage post. It is a healthy discussion, and that is how I see it but I have said my say and I probably won't enter into any more debate about this particular topic as I find it tiresome.

 

[Immanent]

My general rule of thumb: don't shoot stationary targets.

 

[Metreon]

*Sigh* One more, then. I'll keep it short.

@Disci: Thanks for the support, but please try to refrain from name-calling.

@Carnage: No point in another round of this. I think it's time, for the moment, to agree to disagree. When I have a bit more time on my hands, perhaps I'll expand a bit, and get as good at the other classes as I am with sniping. And Lanthus is one of my favorite snipers- as was Cerberus, back in the day, and Van, who's not only hella cool but versatile as hell.

Kudos to the devs on the TDM servers. Just the place for me to do my thing in peace and get a bit of practice in (and lay low 'till things cool off. )

I don't take this game as seriously as you do. Fine. I'll admit that. And you probably have higher expectations for someone like me who's been with this game a while. Fair enough. On osniping, and my reasoning- you have your opinion, and I have mine. Point is, let's just play the damned game and stop bickering. I too am tired of this. The dead horse is now well past the point of being fertilizer.

*Takes not-so measured chugs from growler of Ommegang BPA*

Dearest Seymour, if you are reading this, perhaps a thread lock is in order?

 

[Disci]

How you can call this a scholarly debate (consider Disci's extreme lack of civility) I don't know but in the spirit of simple discourse I will reply to your (once again) unnecessarily epic post.

Metreon you talk so much that you don't seem to 'hear' a thing. Just like rabbiting, duelling or any number of other things, o-sniping is a tactical mistake in CTF. It comes down to one simple fact: You could be doing a lot more, instead of wasting your and everyone else's time and valuable resources (yes, in an 8-person team you are a valuable resource). We are a community here and we are trying to build this game up. If you are a part of this community and you believe in the game you will try to understand teamwork better and help us to educate new people about the best ways to play the game. Instead you are helping to break it down. Please decide where you stand.

There's nothing to debate when starting point is that you are determing how the game should be played. We should end the discussion right here. Carnage knows everything already and everyone should follow these rules or they will break the game and possibly be hated by EVERYONE!

I'd pick an o-sniper who can deal huge amounts of damage in one shot rather than Carnage running in sentinel getting his fat ass MA'd and chained down instantly during standoffs. Most of the time during standoffs it's about dealing a lot of damage in a short periord of time since when carrier goes down to ~30% health he starts to look for someone to pass the flag. Not even mentioning getting shots at cappers going O or coming back with the flag. Sounds like very effective playing to me.

I don't care if I'm civilized or not, you're here to tell people how to play the game, without knowledge about the game it seems, and then call this a debate? Damn, you must be a really nice person to debate with. Biggest elitist in here is you im afraid. Your best way is not always the most effective way. Try to think about this for a while before you post replies.

Edit: IN BEFORE LOCK!