My opinion on the chain gun

[Buhlitz]

I don't ever use the chain, so nerfs all around plz

 

[BugsPray]

Being a chaser, I currently like playing with the nerf, and think chasing should be more a finishing thing than a kill-you-from-half-health thing. I'd like to see the sniper get a bit more play in a mid-field type position (or even at base) to help counteract a bit of the reduced damage from the cg.

 

[GundamExia00]

The Spread is fine. You just gotta get used to it and ur fine, and learning all the levels of overheat is pretty important too.

 

[Deskari]

Whoa... Just... Yeah, I suppose I'll just leave this here for you. So chaingun is supposed to be the main chase and duel gun, where in RL/GL share the role for groundpounder. Gotcha.
Now that we got that over with, can we actually get back to the main point that was that the current CG needs a slight buffing for the chase part? And doing this without making it completely rape in... Actually nevermind as it is the main duel weapon anyways. *chocolate cookies*. Well I'm sorry. I'll leave you guys to ponder about it yourselfs.

I think Nept summed it up my point, but I shall go into detail.

Nobody says that the chaingun is the main chase or duel gun, just as rockets and nades are not the main chase or duel guns. I think you need to see the picture from the other side of the looking glass and say, "So rocket and nade are supposed to be the main chase and duel gun, where in the chaingun's role is for chaser. Gotcha." Most chasers AND duelers use a combination of all their weapons to their disposal and are not limited into thinking that each weapon is for a specific task, but rather each weapon has it's proficiencies. Let's face it, some weapons are just better in certain situations, and they should be by design.

Nowhere in any of my responses to this thread have I actually taken a side of whether chaingun should be nerfed or buffed, and I'm pretty sure the original main point of this thread was not about buffing it for chasing. Rather it was more focused upon the spread of the chaingun at certain heat levels. I've already not-so-cleverly hinted about how to make the gun not rape in it's un-nerfed form.

 

[WildFire]

I'm just going to jump in here without reading much of the thread and suggest this idea I had a long time ago:

"On all the other weapons, you have a period before you can fire again. I am not talking about waiting until the overheat bar has disappeared can you change weapons, that would be horrible. I’m talking about a period of time before the chain gun stops firing. It makes sense to have this period of time there. I am not decided on how long this period of time should be"

 

[Homingun]

Being a chaser, I currently like playing with the nerf, and think chasing should be more a finishing thing than a kill-you-from-half-health thing. I'd like to see the sniper get a bit more play in a mid-field type position (or even at base) to help counteract a bit of the reduced damage from the cg.

I agree, I think giving the outrider sniper the rocket launcher or the grenade launcher would make it a more viable playing class. Basically more customizable classes.

The Spread is fine. You just gotta get used to it and ur fine, and learning all the levels of overheat is pretty important too.

Why would you add inaccuracy to a weapon over time? Would you like the rocket or grenade launcher become more and more inaccurate the more you fire it? I say just give it a consistent spread throughout whether this be extremely narrow spread or a wide spread.

Edited for moderation purposes. -BugsPray

 

[GundamExia00]

I agree, I think giving the outrider sniper the rocket launcher or the grenade launcher would make it a more viable playing class. Basically more customizable classes.



Why would you add inaccuracy to a weapon over time? Would you like the rocket or grenade launcher become more and more inaccurate the more you fire it? I say just give it a consistent spread throughout whether this be extremely narrow spread or a wide spread.

I don't think you understood what I said, basically, you have to get used to it ^^

 

[Kryst]

Being a chaser, I currently like playing with the nerf, and think chasing should be more a finishing thing than a kill-you-from-half-health thing. I'd like to see the sniper get a bit more play in a mid-field type position (or even at base) to help counteract a bit of the reduced damage from the cg.

Give Hornet/Rooster a less reload timer and those classes should be useful.
Laser has too many nerfs... (reload time, laser hang time, damage drop off over distance)

Now I do not mind the hang time or damage drop off, (makes things balanced) but the reload time is just stupid.
I fight a guy with chain gun, he wins. If I do not MA , I am dead.
I cannot switch weapons fast enough to even counteract what he is throwing at me.

More variety needs to be added to the shell of a game we have currently... and if "chasing" is the only option to getting a flag carrier down, it makes it a little too bland for my taste.

But then again, ive argued these points before.

 

[Homingun]

I don't think you understood what I said, basically, you have to get used to it ^^

That's like saying you have to get used to a projectile that zig-zags to its target. Please explain why a weapon should have increased inaccuracy over time instead of a constant spread.

Edited for moderation purposes. -BugsPray

 

[Shade]

That's like saying you have to get used to a projectile that zig-zags to its target. Please explain why a weapon should have increased inaccuracy over time instead of a constant spread.

The overheat mechanic helps with balance. In duels, close-range cg is naturally out-shined by MAs, due to the rewarding knockback and disorientating effects. At mid-range, MAs become less frequent, yet the cg retains much of its effectiveness. The overheat places limits to keep the cg from become too dominate mid-range.

The overheat introduces additional skill as well. At mid-range a player needs to manage their overheat wisely. If a player fires too much and too inaccurately, they are punished with an inaccurate weapon. The solution to the problem is, of course, firing in bursts. Firing in bursts allows skilled players to maintain good accuracy, thus maintaining good damage. In a way, it’s like MAing your target several times.

There are a few more aspects of the game I would like to go into regarding the cg, which I’ll get to another day.

I’m not opposed to new mechanics being introduced to the game, but I do enjoy this method of balancing it.

Which of what I said is in question here? Or, what points are in question that I should consider responding to? And what issues am I avoiding?. I truly don't know what you are referring to.

I have not tried to dissect your posting style or tried to establish that you are a "meanie". All I have shown is how your "abrasive manner" effects the thread as a whole and why it is not welcome here.

As to the rest of your post, I will PM you as to not derail this thread any further. Feel free to post it up if you like.

If you read over RockeyRex’s posts, you’ll notice he’s not being friendly. Here’s how he starts off with his contribution: “Stop. Just stop. If you like talking out of yer arse, do it on 4chan or something.” If you want a respectful, mature discussion, you should’ve focused your attention on RockeyRex in the first place. Also, “Do you have to attack someone personally to feel happy with your post?”.

Nept posting isn’t always friendly, yes, but he made valid points (acknowledged by you below). The purpose of his post starting off with, “You've misunderstood. Here's a summary:” is to clear up any ambiguity from his previous posts and shift the focus of the discussion from his posting style to the points he brought up. This sums up his post nicely: “Almost forgot: now that we've dissected my posting style, and established that I'm a meanie, please respond to the points in question.”

“Though you and desk had some valid points, the bashing that was incorporated into your posts does not elevate it far above crap.”

“In summary, what do you lose in responding in a respectful manner?”

This is hypocritical. If you want to focus on the discussion at hand, you’d focus on the valid points raised by Nept and Desk and respond in a respectful manner. By not responding to them, you appear to be avoiding the issue.

I hope this cleared up the ambiguity. If not, we can continue the discussion in PMs—I don’t want to derail your thread.

 

[Homingun]

Basically, constraining ourselves to the mentality that a weapons should be used for certain uses (such as chasing or a "finisher") would be narrow minded. I also hinted that doing so in the past had made certain weapons OP. I do not have to be exceptional at said weapon to observe this but I'd like to think I was not terrible with it.

If you read over RockeyRex’s posts, you’ll notice he’s not being friendly. Here’s how he starts off with his contribution: “Stop. Just stop. If you like talking out of yer arse, do it on 4chan or something.” If you want a respectful, mature discussion, you should’ve focused your attention on RockeyRex in the first place. Also, “Do you have to attack someone personally to feel happy with your post?”.

The incoherence of RockyRex's post had me ignoring him after his first response. I just expected Nept to react in a better manner than he did.

“Though you and desk had some valid points, the bashing that was incorporated into your posts does not elevate it far above crap.”

“In summary, what do you lose in responding in a respectful manner?”

This is hypocritical. If you want to focus on the discussion at hand, you’d focus on the valid points raised by Nept and Desk and respond in a respectful manner. By not responding to them, you appear to be avoiding the issue.

It is not hypocritical considering that the question is based off of the statement. And I have responded in a respectful manner or as respectful as possible considering the topic at hand. This thread was just for opinions on the new CG, I do not "own" it and there was never an "issue" that required my response.

The overheat mechanic helps with balance. In duels, close-range cg is naturally out-shined by MAs, due to the rewarding knockback and disorientating effects. At mid-range, MAs become less frequent, yet the cg retains much of its effectiveness. The overheat places limits to keep the cg from become too dominate mid-range.

Actually I do not agree with this. Though MAs are disorienting and have a knock back effect, proper movement can be used to easily avoid them. Considering the high velocity of the CG projectiles, it is extremely hard to dodge them at close range. And the spam of them creates a sort of "splash damage" in the air. I would just like the CG to be a more consistent weapon for all ranges.

The overheat introduces additional skill as well. At mid-range a player needs to manage their overheat wisely. If a player fires too much and too inaccurately, they are punished with an inaccurate weapon. The solution to the problem is, of course, firing in bursts. Firing in bursts allows skilled players to maintain good accuracy, thus maintaining good damage. In a way, it’s like MAing your target several times.

I would think that at mid-range, leading the player and taking into account the dodging of the other player is skill enough, all the while dodging the other players projectiles. Even if a player fires accurately, he is punished due to the damage output of the CG and how quickly the spread takes effect.

Many players, including me have inconsistent(not high) ping. Hence we will not know the true lead of the weapon until the tracers give the feedback. The spread the CG creates over time makes it more ping dependent than it needs to be.

Many posts seem to be shuffled and some even seem to be missing. It's quite confusing.

Now I do not mind the hang time or damage drop off, (makes things balanced) but the reload time is just stupid.
I fight a guy with chain gun, he wins. If I do not MA , I am dead.
I cannot switch weapons fast enough to even counteract what he is throwing at me.

Though this might require another thread entirely, I agree with the weapon switch time of the laser rifle. But you have to keep in mind that you are using a sniper class. It might be a way to keep it balanced.

I do not know if you have the same problem, but unless you are in first person and not zoomed in, it is very hard to know when the sniper rifle has reloaded. Many times, I have fired and the sound triggers for a fire but no beam comes out.

EDIT: Merry Christmas everyone.

Edited for moderation purposes. -BugsPray

 

[Shade]

Though MAs are disorienting and have a knock back effect, proper movement can be used to easily avoid them. Considering the high velocity of the CG projectiles, it is extremely hard to dodge them at close range.

Proper aim hits proper movement (especially in Legions). I’ve dueled with many players who hit MAs and cg consistently, despite any attempts I make to avoid them. “Proper movement” may throw off less skilled players, but against good players “proper movement” and “dodging” is quite limited.

What we’re both getting at here is it’s hard (impossible?) to dodge or avoid damage. If more movement options are added, it would increase the skill gap; help balance the cg, and make more weapons possible (Desk mentioned freedom of movement needing a buff—one of the points you missed).

Note: short, mid, and long range are different for everyone.

And the spam of them creates a sort of "splash damage" in the air.

If you’re talking about the spread, yes, it is spamming and easy to hit with at close range with the overheat. However, the cg doesn’t start off with the spread. If the player is bad, they will have a much harder time hitting with the cg with no overheat. Given the time it takes to build up the overheat, the player is only rewarded with an easier weapon after giving his opposition a head start.

I’m sorry if I missed your point here.

I would just like the CG to be a more consistent weapon for all ranges.

I was pointing out with overheat management the cg is good at all ranges and introduces another skill to the game. I am not opposed to new ideas; I’m simply expressing why I enjoy the current system.

Many players, including me have inconsistent(not high) ping. Hence we will not know the true lead of the weapon until the tracers give the feedback.

Are you referring to the occasional lag spikes? They aren’t as frequent when it’s just 2 people in a server. Give dueling using bursts a shot.

Someone who is proficient with the cg is able to recognize the lead and burst fire accurately (this method of aiming is called “twitching”). Good players are able to twitch; bad ones aren’t (this is what Nept was getting at). The method you described is aiming with the stream. Basically, it’s waving the cg around ‘til you hit your target; from that point on, you trace the target. This is a less skillful method because you’re waving the cg around ‘til you hit your target. The overheat punishes a bad player with inaccuracy. To combat the overheat, one simply needs to stop firing and try again. If the player tries again, they’ll have the difficult first few shots—overheat helps create a skill differential.

The spread the CG creates over time makes it more ping dependent than it needs to be.

A good player can adjust to most pings--at anything. Is it necessary for the Developers to make a high pinger equal to a low pinger (100+ diffrence; I honestly don't notice a 50 ping difference)? There's also easier weapons (splash weapons) for high pingers to use.

I would like the cg to do 6-7 points of damage (it's currently at 5)--it feels gimped. I would also like to bring up Heavy passing (does anyone remember when 2 heavies got the flag; passed the flag back and forth; thus creating an infinite standoff?). Due to changes, such as the cg's damage and decreased spawn time--it takes 2.5 seconds to spawn and there's 3 second spawn invulnerability--it could spell disaster for balance.

My posts are not to incite a flamewar, attack others personally, or say "I'm pro, you're not"--they are to clarify and express my opinions on the chaingun.

 

[RiPTaCk]

I dunno if I completely understood everything but anyway.

​

Well I also consider myself as a chaser and some people in Europe may know me.
I mostly use cg for chasing, though I don't think that the overheat spray really matters:

-First of all if you move quickly overheat doesn't matter. (As already mentioned by some ppl)
-Homingun once referred to the period where the capper is leaving the base. In that situation overheat plays a role BUT a semi-skilled- or pro-player normally leaves the base very quickly after grabbing the flag. And as a chaser you normally try to shoot at that player but you also try to get speed to follow the capper (rocket-jumping,downjet,etc) And in that period you normally don't get your chaingun very overheated, so it doesnt play a huge role.
-In case your cg is already half overheated for example (previous duel,etc..) then of course your cg will spray at a large area. But should you really be able to just duel and flip instantly over to chasing someone? Then a skilled chaser would be a bit too powerful in my opinion.
-In case the capper is not moving at high speed, the chaser's cg may get overheated but the potential of the capper dropping at the ground is also higher at low speed so as a good chaser you should switch to Rl or Gl for 1-2 shots and not complain about the spray of the cg.

About the other positions i can't really talk about the overheat spray but don't think it is that much of a problem there either.

Edited for moderation purposes. -BugsPray

 

[Deskari]

Actually I do not agree with this. Though MAs are disorienting and have a knock back effect, proper movement can be used to easily avoid them. Considering the high velocity of the CG projectiles, it is extremely hard to dodge them at close range. And the spam of them creates a sort of "splash damage" in the air. I would just like the CG to be a more consistent weapon for all ranges.

I've addressed this in my previous posts regarding situational weapon use. Let's also ask, why do you want the CG to be "consistent" for all ranges, when the rocket and nade are not "consistent" at all ranges?

I would think that at mid-range, leading the player and taking into account the dodging of the other player is skill enough, all the while dodging the other players projectiles. Even if a player fires accurately, he is punished due to the damage output of the CG and how quickly the spread takes effect.

Many players, including me have inconsistent(not high) ping. Hence we will not know the true lead of the weapon until the tracers give the feedback. The spread the CG creates over time makes it more ping dependent than it needs to be.

Many posts seem to be shuffled and some even seem to be missing. It's quite confusing.

I'm indifferent of the cg spread and overheat, then again I don't think the problems are rooted in the cg. Thankfully, Shade has graciously addressed you with his opinion. Considering that cg and sniper have been complained about in Tribes as well as this game, this discussion spans over a decade and yet you all still haven't figured it out? The weapons aren't the problem, its the low ceiling that constrains weapon design.

Though this might require another thread entirely, I agree with the weapon switch time of the laser rifle. But you have to keep in mind that you are using a sniper class. It might be a way to keep it balanced.

I do not know if you have the same problem, but unless you are in first person and not zoomed in, it is very hard to know when the sniper rifle has reloaded. Many times, I have fired and the sound triggers for a fire but no beam comes out.

Let's think about the people "balancing" this game and remember that they come from Tribes, I've addressed this issue.

HAPPY SECULAR HOLIDAYS EVERYONE!

Edited for moderation purposes. -BugsPray

 

[GundamExia00]

That's like saying you have to get used to a projectile that zig-zags to its target. Please explain why a weapon should have increased inaccuracy over time instead of a constant spread.



Which of what I said is in question here? Or, what points are in question that I should consider responding to? And what issues am I avoiding?. I truly don't know what you are referring to.

I have not tried to dissect your posting style or tried to establish that you are a "meanie". All I have shown is how your "abrasive manner" effects the thread as a whole and why it is not welcome here.

As to the rest of your post, I will PM you as to not derail this thread any further. Feel free to post it up if you like.

Oh ok, so you'd rather have max overheat at the weapon at all times?
Do you know why they removed CGII?

And also, I have to ask you something.
Why argue about a weapon that you don't even use? I use CG and I would *chocolate cookies* my pants if it were at half or even 1/4 spread at all times, I can handle it growing in time because I can predict the spread and still hit like a *lady friend*.

 

[Redvan]

i have yet to see a situation where firing in bursts is not only entirely possible, but also preferable. As such, I've never been affected by the overheat. Perhaps you should try using a burst method so you don't overheat, homing. Once you see how simple a solution this is to your problem, you wont have to worry about this thread any more.

Having the overheat spread prevents people from just spamming the cg with pinpoint accuracy. Makes you think more about what you're doing.

 

[RockeyRex]

Come on now, we completely destroyed his argument, I'm pretty sure we reacted in a manner that was beneficial to the community as a whole. Not only will people know that RockyRex's posts are failed attempts at trolling, but also our responses might actually convince some of you to think objectively.

Oh please. You didn't destroy anything. The fact that our views of what CG should be balanced upon is just different don't make your "objective" responce any more correct.
And I still think every weapon should have a purpose it is designed for. Otherwise you might as well fill the game with 10 more weapons that colide with the role of the other weapons or cover the role of them all, thus the CoD refference earlier.

Failed attemps at trolling? Yes, it might have something to do with the fact I'm not. I may be biassed and my posts are "ranty", but I'm not trolling.

Alas, once again, my point of view what the CG should be is a chasing weapon. However the suggestion on how to make it a better one at it didn't really nerf it at dueling either. Upping the damage and lowering the overheat time pretty much counter each other in a duel (possibly even buff it, depending on how you use it) but do in fact buff it in a chase situation.

 

[Homingun]

Proper aim hits proper movement (especially in Legions). I’ve dueled with many players who hit MAs and cg consistently, despite any attempts I make to avoid them. “Proper movement” may throw off less skilled players, but against good players “proper movement” and “dodging” is quite limited.

In all my time playing legions, I have yet to meet one of these players that can MA me consistently. Considering I have played in tons of pickups and in competition, I think I have fought against most if not all dedicated players that play Legions. If I remember correctly, you play mainly as a raider. The class in itself is meant to be a balance between maneuverability and toughness. Maybe play as the outrider instead? And since your previous post referred to how MAs are more effective than cg at close range, I completely disagree. Also, keep in mind that extremely close MAs do damage back to you.

If you’re talking about the spread, yes, it is spamming and easy to hit with at close range with the overheat. However, the cg doesn’t start off with the spread. If the player is bad, they will have a much harder time hitting with the cg with no overheat. Given the time it takes to build up the overheat, the player is only rewarded with an easier weapon after giving his opposition a head start.


I’m sorry if I missed your point here.

Here, I was referring to the general spam of the weapon at all ranges creating a splash effect regardless of spread or range. Even if I am randomly flailing in the general direction of the player I'm trying to hit, the high rate of fire grats me some hits. This gets higher the more accurate you are just as it does for the rocket launcher and grenade launcher on the ground. If you didn't know, the chaingun already starts out with a small spread that can be noticed at longer ranges.

Are you referring to the occasional lag spikes? They aren’t as frequent when it’s just 2 people in a server. Give dueling using bursts a shot.

No, I am referring to the fact that some of us have bad ISPs. Though internet speeds have increased in the last few years, so has torrenting/downloading. A couple neighbors downloading whatever at full speed wreaks havoc for multiplayer gaming. (I actually don't know how networks work, but I'm just speaking from experience) I am also referring to many of us needing to use wireless to play. I know this creates ping fluctuations and packet loss depending on the strength of connection.

A good player can adjust to most pings--at anything. Is it necessary for the Developers to make a high pinger equal to a low pinger (100+ diffrence; I honestly don't notice a 50 ping difference)? There's also easier weapons (splash weapons) for high pingers to use.

Each weapon excels in different areas. And ping affects these weapons differently. Therefore if ping affects one weapon and its specialized area. This is not made up by "splashy weapons". In this case, ping affects chain gun far more than it effects say the rocket launcher. The area that the chaingun affects is not made up by "splashy weapons".

I've addressed this in my previous posts regarding situational weapon use. Let's also ask, why do you want the CG to be "consistent" for all ranges, when the rocket and nade are not "consistent" at all ranges?

The rockets and nades are consistent over all ranger over time. They do not start going in different directions the more you use them do they? You can rely on them to go where you point. You can't do that after a bit of over heat with the chaingun.

Responding to dissections from multiple people is extremely tedious and time consuming. Considering I do not have the labor force at my disposal, can we please be more concise?

-Edited for moderation purposes. -BugsPray

 

[Homingun]

i have yet to see a situation where firing in bursts is not only entirely possible, but also preferable. As such, I've never been affected by the overheat. Perhaps you should try using a burst method so you don't overheat, homing. Once you see how simple a solution this is to your problem, you wont have to worry about this thread any more.

Having the overheat spread prevents people from just spamming the cg with pinpoint accuracy. Makes you think more about what you're doing.

If that were the case we can just make a burst weapon with whatever many rounds/burst. We wouldn't need a cg would we.

And why do I need to think more about what level of overheat I'm at? God know, there's enough to think about. Such as, the lead on the target, how the target is moving, what the target is shooting at me, what terrain I'm going to be landing on, how can I use this terrain to gain an advantage, how much energy do I have, who are the players around me, what is the situation with the flag, and several others. This already stretches me to the limit. And many players get lost in some of this stuff and lose situational awareness.

In final, It boils down to why would you have a player thinking about spread when there are so many more important things to think about?

 

[Redvan]

If that were the case we can just make a burst weapon with whatever many rounds/burst. We wouldn't need a cg would we.

And why do I need to think more about what level of overheat I'm at? God know, there's enough to think about. Such as, the lead on the target, how the target is moving, what the target is shooting at me, what terrain I'm going to be landing on, how can I use this terrain to gain an advantage, how much energy do I have, who are the players around me, what is the situation with the flag, and several others. This already stretches me to the limit. And many players get lost in some of this stuff and lose situational awareness.

In final, It boils down to why would you have a player thinking about spread when there are so many more important things to think about?

and you finally admitted your problem: Bad at multitasking.

Practice, you'll get better

the reason you need this level of multitasking (some of us say it's still pretty low), is to give better players the ability to excel, and gives not as good players something to try to achieve. If you make everything easy and equal, it makes for a very boring game.

I'm not saying this to say "look at me i'm better than you", I'm saying it to say "if I can do it, so can you"