My opinion on the chain gun

Homingun

Member
and you finally admitted your problem: Bad at multitasking.

Practice, you'll get better :)

the reason you need this level of multitasking (some of us say it's still pretty low), is to give better players the ability to excel, and gives not as good players something to try to achieve. If you make everything easy and equal, it makes for a very boring game.

I'm not saying this to say "look at me i'm better than you", I'm saying it to say "if I can do it, so can you"

I wouldn't say I'm bad at multitasking, but I'm definitely not the best. Nor do I have a problem keeping track of the chain gun spread gain, but I do find it really annoying with all the other things that need to be accounted for... This thread is not about how good I am with multitasking or with the chain gun anyway.

If adding inaccuracy to a weapon over time is what is needed for some of us to have something to think about, then we have a big problem. When making the weapon, I wonder if the developer looked at the spread gain of weapons in other popular fps war games.

As I was telling Shade, this sort of spread gain also hurts players with inconsistent ping. I don't feel like writing it all out again so please read my previous posts.

I would think that the chain gun gaining spread as quickly as it does is actually making it harder for newer players to get good with it. After the first second or so of firing it, it becomes more of a spam in the general direction of the target weapon. This doesn't help newer players understand the lead of the weapon. If its spread was confined in a narrow enough cone, then players might actually understand the lead and get better with the weapon progressively.

Frankly, I wouldn't care if the gun started with a spread. I would just like it to have a consistent spread
 

Gheist

King of all Goblins
[...] I would just like it to have a consistent spread
Just throwing that in again: The CG has a consistent (and almost non-existent) spread. As long as you're moving fast enough. There might be a reason for that gameplay mechanic.
 

Synista

Member
CG is a chasing weapon, if you don't want the huge spread it gets when spraying it, how about skiing at 'Velocity warning' onwards (89.9 m/s ... correct me if I'm wrong.) and then there is ALMOST NO SPREAD
 

robke112

New Member
CG is a chasing weapon, if you don't want the huge spread it gets when spraying it, how about skiing at 'Velocity warning' onwards (89.9 m/s ... correct me if I'm wrong.) and then there is ALMOST NO SPREAD
You're wrong, its 88 m/s.
 

Redvan

Private Tester
If adding inaccuracy to a weapon over time is what is needed for some of us to have something to think about, then we have a big problem. When making the weapon, I wonder if the developer looked at the spread gain of weapons in other popular fps war games.
So what is this big problem?

As I was telling Shade, this sort of spread gain also hurts players with inconsistent ping.
you cant "balance" weapons based on ping. You need to balance them based on a level playing field. The majority of players will have 40-90 ping, a scattering in the 100's, and very few over 200.

I would think that the chain gun gaining spread as quickly as it does is actually making it harder for newer players to get good with it.
thats fine. I think the goal is to NOT make another CoD.

After the first second or so of firing it, it becomes more of a spam in the general direction of the target weapon.
I've ran the cg up to max heat and still haven't seen a problem hitting people. The spread means less bullets will hit (obviously to prevent major spamming of the weapon), but this is very easily counteracted by burst firing. While chasing, the spread wont be as much of a factor because the airflow from your speed is cooling the weapon.

This doesn't help newer players understand the lead of the weapon. If its spread was confined in a narrow enough cone, then players might actually understand the lead and get better with the weapon progressively.
No new player is going to immediately understand the lead of any weapon. You can say the exact same for rockets and nades. That's perfectly fine. Nobody expects new players to hop right in and be pro. What really makes new players capability of learning to use the weapons well take longer is the fact that all the servers are CTF. CTF inherently limits the amount of shooting necessary as compared to a DM or TDM.

Frankly, I wouldn't care if the gun started with a spread. I would just like it to have a consistent spread

cg is already too nerfed.
 

Outlawl

Macabre
CG is a chasing weapon, if you don't want the huge spread it gets when spraying it, how about skiing at 'Velocity warning' onwards (89.9 m/s ... correct me if I'm wrong.) and then there is ALMOST NO SPREAD

Thank you for ignoring every, single post in this thread.

If you had read this thread, you would see that Deskari has already challenged the idea that "CG is a chasing weapon," rather it should be treated as a primary weapon similar to rockets or grenades. Thus assuming the CG is only for chasing roles is inherently- wrong.

Go read the thread. Now read it again.

Now you can post.
 

Homingun

Member
So what is this big problem?

The problem is instead of content and actual game play mechanics, we are choosing to make a weapon unnecessarily complicated to give players something to think about. Maybe we should make all the other weapons gain inaccuracy with repeated fire as well. The would give players who are using all the weapons something to think about. And if we actually want to add depth to the game, we need to first work on the infinite FOV IFFs and the way the sniper is used.

you cant "balance" weapons based on ping. You need to balance them based on a level playing field. The majority of players will have 40-90 ping, a scattering in the 100's, and very few over 200.

If you had read my previous posts as I had asked, you would notice that I am not talking about high ping. Considering all high velocity projectiles are extremely ping dependent on a game that is run server side, obviously ping gives an inbuilt advantage. I was talking about the variation of ping that occurs for many people (I vary from around 60-100) due to their ISPs or their wireless or their connection in general. The high velocity of the chain gun projectiles already make it ping dependent (in both the ways I had stated above). By adding this spread gain due to overheat, this just gets compounded unnecessarily.

thats fine. I think the goal is to NOT make another CoD.

Obviously this game is extremely different than CoD. First of all, you don't have to lead anything in CoD. Nor do you have to consider all the different movements. The way I see it, those games are made for casual gamers or people who are just stepping into gaming. Taking out the spread due to over heat in not going to make this game CoDesque. So how does giving spread to weapons go away for CoD for again? The last time I saw most weapons in that game are spread based. They might have to be considering that game is based on realism and needed something other than point (or twitch) and click.

No new player is going to immediately understand the lead of any weapon. You can say the exact same for rockets and nades. That's perfectly fine. Nobody expects new players to hop right in and be pro. What really makes new players capability of learning to use the weapons well take longer is the fact that all the servers are CTF. CTF inherently limits the amount of shooting necessary as compared to a DM or TDM.

I am not expecting new players to hop right in and be pro either. But adding unnecessary hurdles for them reach an adequate level is a downside to this game. It makes the learning curve steeper than in needs to be. And rocket and nades don't gain inaccuracy the more you fire them do they.

I do agree that having DM and TDM servers would be a nice addition. If not anything, it would give something else to do instead of CTF. But CTF itself has its own special charm for me in Legions.

cg is already too nerfed.

This thread was started to address any of those concerns. I don't think making the spread consistent would nerf the cg any further. It would just decrease the range in which it would be effective. This might even let sniper rifles have a role in chasing.

I was proposing that the current unnecessary weakness of the cg be combated by a consistent or even accurate spread over all overheat levels.

Much of what I said is a repeat of what I have written in my previous posts. So please read them if you want to have a proper discussion.
 

Homingun

Member
Just throwing that in again: The CG has a consistent (and almost non-existent) spread. As long as you're moving fast enough. There might be a reason for that gameplay mechanic.

So now you are implying that the weapon is being balanced to the chasing aspect of the game. I believe we have been over this already. Though I don't mind passively adding some aspects to the weapon to have it fill a role (speed of movement counteracting overheat), actively making it fill these roles (gaining spread due to overheat) was what had made it OP in the first place.

And before you go saying...
And then, suddenly, out of the corner and unexpected, along came a huge improvement to the netcode.

You should note that the netcode changes improved all weapons' effectiveness including the chaingun. I have yet to see it affect the chaingun more radically than the other weapons.

Also, I don't think the netcode made such a big difference in the game that the CG's DPS output was toned down to almost 60% of it's previous iteration. But if an some excuse was needed to actually bring its DPS output to the range of the other weapons and balance it, I'm not complaining.
 

Shade

Private Tester
In all my time playing legions, I have yet to meet one of these players that can MA me consistently.
I’ll post a video to show you how consistent MAs can be at close range.
No, I am referring to the fact that some of us have bad ISPs.
Games shouldn’t be balanced for those with unstable connections. Your connection isn’t a problem with the game; it’s a problem with your connection.
Each weapon excels in different areas. And ping affects these weapons differently. Therefore if ping affects one weapon and its specialized area. This is not made up by "splashy weapons". In this case, ping affects chain gun far more than it effects say the rocket launcher. The area that the chaingun affects is not made up by "splashy weapons".
The game shouldn’t be balanced for people with unequal pings; it should be balanced for people with equal pings. Why does a player with 150 ping have to be equal to a player with 50 ping?
The rockets and nades are consistent over all ranger…
“Did you guys know that rockets have a 25% perpendicular drift depending on your perpendicular speed.”
I’m assuming there’s a drift for grenades as well. I left out the “over time” because you’ll never be standing still.
If that were the case we can just make a burst weapon with whatever many rounds/burst. We wouldn't need a cg would we.
Perhaps the cg was ment to be burst fire mid-long range and stream up close—it would explain overheat.
And why do I need to think more about what level of overheat I'm at?
In final, It boils down to why would you have a player thinking about spread when there are so many more important things to think about?
“The overheat introduces additional skill as well.” I’ve explained this in previous posts. Why remove an element of skill from the game?
Such as, the lead on the target, how the target is moving, what the target is shooting at me, what terrain I'm going to be landing on, how can I use this terrain to gain an advantage, how much energy do I have, who are the players around me, what is the situation with the flag, and several others.
Everything you listed is an essential skill in any FPS—even spread; it should all be second nature.
I would think that the chain gun gaining spread as quickly as it does is actually making it harder for newer players to get good with it.
Good. A skill gap! We shouldn’t make the game easier; we should make it more user-friendly. There are many tutorials and guides, but none of them are given to a player when they first start. A new player shouldn’t have to find them—they should be offered to them on a silver platter. I’d also like to point out games like CoD (which the majority of people play) have spread accumulated over time and there’s no shortage of new players. The lack of new players is because of the vastly different movement in Legions and the lack of user-friendliness. (No I am not arguing for easier movement; I’m arguing for tutorials given at registration and “Helpers”)
Frankly, I wouldn't care if the gun started with a spread. I would just like it to have a consistent spread.
If the cg starts off with a (somewhat large) spread, it would punish good players more than it does now. The controlled bursts give a good player the perfect accuracy of the first few shots. Your “start off with a spread” idea won’t give a good player the accuracy bursts have, unless it has a tight spread. Let’s say the cg has a very tight spread so it rewards accurate duelist. However, chaining out cappers (incoming or coming home) much more possible and easier due to the predictable, linear movement. Also, if there is no overheat (when the bar reaches the top and stops firing), the cg would become spammy. How do you propose we balance this?

“I would just like the CG to be a more consistent weapon for all ranges.”

“Considering the high velocity of the CG projectiles, it is extremely hard to dodge them at close range.”

Having a consistent (I’m assuming tight) spread would make dodging harder—you won’t have the cg overheat missing for the player.

The problem with the cg (other than damage) is not the cg itself—it’s the movement. It’s like trying to balance heat-seeking missiles (think Tribes) without Flares. When you remove Flares from Tribes, it becomes hard to balance heat-seeking missiles through only minor tweaks. In this case, the problem with missiles is not the missiles themselves; it is the lack of content to balance them. If more movement options are added, such as a dodge, it would increase the skill gap; help balance the cg, and make more weapons possible (Desk mentioned freedom of movement needing a buff—one of the points you missed).
 
This reminds me of my first months on legions. You just wait until someone touches the ground and then you throw a grenade or rocket. I like a weapon which I can use in air. Trying to MA contstantly is far too uncertain.

Besides, I only know two REAL chainwhores on the EU servers. Not really a reason to change the chaingun no?
 

Homingun

Member
Alright, I'm done.

Answering so many aspects from different people is taking too much time and effort. Also, I have had to repeat the same answers to the same issues several times. Frankly, it's giving me a head ache. So I'm gonna drop out of this discussion.

Hopefully, this discussion has given something to think about for the developers when balancing weapons. I'm sorry if I was not able to answer questions and discuss this issue further with you guys. If you truly want to talk about it, PM me or better yet find me in TS3 or Vent.

By no means let this stop anyone from posting their opinions and discussing about the chain gun.
 

Immanent

Member
CG is very reliant on ping. If im 20-100 ping I (it is very easy) can take people down by 50% of their health atleast in mid air. You just have to practice.... and not overpowered in my opinion. You should just learn to chainwhore back or fly better.
 
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