Lower or remove the damage reduction while dodging

[scoot]

Dodge is primarily supposed to be used to quickly move you to a nearby position. This allows players to evade enemy projectiles and snag loose flags. But its damage reduction also gives it a shield ability that even outshines the shield core in some cases. Because of the damage reduction, dodge core is overloaded with uses, as opposed to its relatively single-minded counterparts. Given that, I think that the damage reduction while dodging is out of place.

1.
In duels, people primarily use dodge for its damage reduction. As it is right now, it doesn't even matter in which direction you choose to dodge. Regardless, you receive a damage reduction even higher than shield (I don't know the number off the top of my head, but a direct rocket seems to barely even do 15% to an outrider, which is kinda ridiculous). You could even remove the movement that comes with dodge, and the core might actually be better in duels as long as it still has its iframes (I can list a couple scenarios if anyone is curious).
If damage reduction were lowered or removed, people would actually have to think about where they should dodge to best avoid a groundpound rocket, rather than just mindlessly pressing a button. For example, I might strafe left and then quickly dodge right to trick the enemy. This would force people to use dodge with the purpose of evading, and not just soaking damage.

2.
Right now, the damage reduction allows you to get away with poor energy management in duels, whereas before you would be punished for it. If you waste your energy, just land and dodge and enjoy sweet iframes while your energy recharges. Rinse and repeat.
It's true that shield also allows you to do this to a lesser extent, but at least damage reduction is shield's only use.

3.
The near-invincibility while dodging also makes it too easy to e-grab. As long as you are within dodge range of the flag, you're basically guaranteed a grab. The defense has no way to stop you, unless you were only a few hp away from dying anyway.
Removing/reducing the damage reduction would at least give the defense a chance to stop you.

Dodge's damage reduction should be lowered/removed because it gives dodge core too many advantages compared to the other cores, and it simplifies dueling meta by acting as a crutch.
I can see how some damage reduction might be necessary, since the dodge distance probably isn't enough to escape the splash damage of a rocket, but it doesn't make sense for the reduction to be even greater than the one shield provides. I feel like a damage reduction in the 20% or lower range should be sufficient, but there's no way to tell for sure without testing it out.

 

[scoot]

I didn't really cover possible downsides of removing invulnerability, so criticisms/objections are welcome.

 

[WildFire]

This isn't the problem with dodge core, the problem is that it takes no resources, health or energy to use.

 

[Fixious]

Dodge is the only core that doesn't have an energy or health tradeoff (not counting Engineer). I could see it taking one or the other, preferably energy.

 

[scoot]

Actually, I think both are problems with dodge. The two things to keep in mind when balancing cores are cost and benefit. Cores should all have some kind of resource cost (health or energy), and they should all be limited to a specific area in terms of benefit and utility. When people complain about a core, it's because they believe the core is unbalanced in one or both of these areas.

Dodge is unbalanced in both areas. (1) It has no cost. (2) It has more areas of utility than the other cores since it functions both as a shield and as a way to quickly move in a direction.

For (1), which you're suggesting, I guess this would be optimal, but I don't see how to effectively implement a cost for dodge. It wouldn't make sense to do damage, since one of its key uses is for avoiding damage in the first place. And if it were to consume energy, essentially nothing would change. People don't dodge until they run out of energy and are forced to land anyway. Unless you mean it can't even be activated unless you're above a certain energy threshold, in which case you'd essentially be removing the ability to avoid groundpounds. I'm sure that would upset a lot of people.

(2) is what I cover in my original post.

Dodge needs to be rebalanced in both areas. Regardless of whether you give it a cost, something needs to be done about its iframes.

 

[scoot]

Actually shield fails by this criteria as well since it has no cost. I'm sure a lot of people would agree that this is a problem with shield.

 

[Perfection]

Actually shield fails by this criteria as well since it has no cost. I'm sure a lot of people would agree that this is a problem with shield.

I would actually prefer if it took energy but absorbed more damage as well. It was changed from this, though, so I doubt it'll be reverted. What I want aside, I don't see it not consuming a resource as a big problem. With shield core chasing nerfed, I think it's pretty well balanced.

Honestly I'd be happy if you couldn't touch flags while in the process of dodging with the dodge core. It makes returning flags and llamaing laughably easy.

Oh, I voted for damage reduction being removed. I don't see why it would reduce damage in the first place.

 

[Fixious]

Honestly I'd be happy if you couldn't touch flags while in the process of dodging with the dodge core. It makes returning flags and llamaing laughably easy.

This would render it useless, since returning/grabbing flags is its strongest tool. Then again I wouldn't necessarily throw a fit if it got removed entirely, but this is coming from someone who never really uses it.

As for Shield, I think something may have slipped through the cracks. It's supposed to reduce chain damage (something like 1% of chain should hurt you), but it actually absorbs 100% of it. If this were fixed or even nerfed to 20% or something, I think it'd please a few people (namely chasers and chainwhores).

 

[scoot]

Honestly I'd be happy if you couldn't touch flags while in the process of dodging with the dodge core. It makes returning flags and llamaing laughably easy.

It is a bit easy, but like fixious said, that's one of dodge's main tools. Instead of removing the ability to grab and return flags completely, we can just nerf it by removing or reducing dodge's damage reduction.

 

[Defender]

If you host your own dedicated server, you can remove them, just takes changing a few variables to 0, in the server files.
I'm going to be modding again, I have deployable walls, stations, and more coded.

 

[Maxter]

This would render it useless, since returning/grabbing flags is its strongest tool.

No it wouldn't, as that isn't it's primary function. I can't stress enough when I say this, and I have always said it; It's a dodge core, much like how the rest of the cores perform based on what they're named after and how they are expected to function, it's only exemplary function should be to provide the ability to dodge, to the player. How in the hell is bulldozing into other players, hitscan grabbing/returning flags in anyway related to dodging?

 

[asdfghaaaaMUK]

just let it dodge people, no random damage on impact or damage reduction buff or anything, i dont' really mind dodge returns either, bcuz your gonna have to kill the person in the first place.

 

[Jello]

No it wouldn't, as that isn't it's primary function. I can't stress enough when I say this, and I have always said it; It's a dodge core, much like how the rest of the cores perform based on what they're named after and how they are expected to function, it's only exemplary function should be to provide the ability to dodge, to the player. How in the hell is bulldozing into other players, hitscan grabbing/returning flags in anyway related to dodging?

I have no problems with the return flag thing but, to be able to "run over" someone......yea thats a bit too much, and also not to suffer damage when your hit with rocket and you dodge at same time? Thats just outright bs, they said they "fixed" it so you takr damage now.....yea doesnt look lime its "fixed"

 

[Ucantry2run]

Pretty sure if they said it was fixed then its fixed.

Also I honestly don't think the dodge core needs to be changed. We don't really need to have a "pro" and "con" system for every single core. It gets sort of cliche. Dodge doesn't need a cost. The shield core is pretty powerful right now that having any other core is a con in itself.

Taking away the clutch dodge flag returns would make it useless like Fixi said. Also removing the "running over" mechanics of the dodge core is pretty silly. For both cases, if you have a core that lets you travel very quickly without dematerializing, obviously you're going to run into anything in the process. It makes no difference if you want to dodge someone in a duel or if you want to dodge someone to get a return or e-grab. On the balancing side of the story, nobody can even successfully dodge into people more than 3 times in a row in the first place. Removing it won't actually change anything. It might be hard to believe, but it is extremely easy to predict if someone is going to dodge. Just don't shoot and punish them for thinking that you were going to. Having the core to just simply dodge away from people would make it lack luster. The ability to grab a flag with the dodge core is what balances it in the first place. I like the uniqueness of the dodge core and I want it to stay that way.

 

[Maxter]

We don't really need to have a "pro" and "con" system for every single core.

WE DO. That is how game balance works. That is what forces people to adapt to not one, but different play styles(in this case, it's different cores). That is how any good game with competitive gameplay should be.

Also removing the "running over" mechanics of the dodge core is pretty silly.

The only silly thing I see here is your post.

 

[Ucantry2run]

I get that you have a difference in opinion. But that doesn't make either of our arguments silly.

The fact that the dodge core has a lot of strong points yet it is weaker than other cores is still a problem. I suggest looking at other cores rather than messing with a core that is perfectly fine.

 

[scoot]

The fact that the dodge core has a lot of strong points yet it is weaker than other cores is still a problem. I suggest looking at other cores rather than messing with a core that is perfectly fine.

I don't see how dodge is weaker than other cores. Most cores only excel in one or two situations. Dodge excels in several and for no cost at that.
I'm actually pretty surprised at your post. I thought it was a well-accepted fact that dodge is more versatile than the other cores. Or are you using a criteria other than versatility when you say it's "weaker?"

 

[Ucantry2run]

I thought it was a well-accepted fact that dodge is more versatile than the other cores. Or are you using a criteria other than versatility when you say it's "weaker?"

I never said it was less versatile than other cores because it actually is and I know that as well. But more versatility does not always mean that it is better. I was saying earlier that being able to grab the flag at a moments notice is the core's strongest mechanic. But if this is removed, it wouldn't be nearly as balanced as the rest of the cores. It probably wouldn't even be used that often because the shield would be a better dodge core. Its versatility is whats keeping it alive. But I do agree with you on the damage reduction (I'm pretty sure it is fixed though) because the core doesn't need that.

Dodge returns aren't that big of a deal in the first place and I'm not sure why they are being over-exaggerated in this thread.

 

[scoot]

I was saying earlier that being able to grab the flag at a moments notice is the core's strongest mechanic. But if this is removed, it wouldn't be nearly as balanced as the rest of the cores.

Yeah, I agree with this. Earlier I was under the impression that you mean it's currently weaker than the other cores.

Dodge returns aren't that big of a deal in the first place and I'm not sure why they are being over-exaggerated in this thread.

I think it's mainly the fact that dodge returns are basically guaranteed without requiring even a second of thought. The other cores that are often used to return the flag are boost and overdrive, an both require you to keep an eye on your health. The energy requirement for dodge that is being tested in public test might be a good way to balance this, but we'll have to see how it works in practice. (edit: I just tried this out in pub test and didn't notice a difference. I might have been misinformed.)

 

[Maxter]

Dodge returns aren't that big of a deal in the first place and I'm not sure why they are being over-exaggerated in this thread.

It's not over exaggeration, it's appropriate response. You just think it's over exaggeration. What you don't understand is returning/grabbing the flag with hitscan power was never meant to be it's primary function. It was a perk (along with the 3 or so others)whose use got game breakingly inflated pretty fast. Now, when I say game breaking, that's not over exaggeration either, because the game has very little amount of things to do as you play CTF(not talking about positions here, just general gameplay), so every little thing counts.

Here's an example. One of those things I cherish most in the game is the scuffle players end up in, when one side is trying to keep the flag alive while the other tries to return it. This "mini game" we have during CTFs has been ruined to a large degree because of the way this core is being used. Boost and Shield might give you an edge, but that's all they do. They are still affected by damage done and the knockback effect. Dodge is so ridiculous in this area, it's like it's telling you; press R and let me take care of the rest. Don't give me the usual bs like you have to aim and crap. You just align and shoot, you touch the upper or lower edge of the flag's hitbox with your character's lower or upper edge of the hitbox respectively, and you got it. It's also not hard at all to get used to the distance covered, so yeah, don't even try.

It's amazing what I'm hearing and what I see while reading the posts made by some of you guys. I still remember how much *chocolate cookies* iOD took, when people wanted it nerfed because of the way cappers were getting blocked. They just summarised it by saying "all you do is press R, so it's OP". Of course you're going to get blocked if you use no tactics and try to grab in the most obvious way. It's just that, all the whining was from all the lazy cappers who wanted to solo everything and didn't want team coordination to play a major role in grabbing the flag, or just didn't care for it. Now, not a single word comes out regarding the Dodge core's basic function of "press R and see the magic" retarded gameplay, which is even worse than iOD. And a cooldown removal for when you hit the guy? SERIOUSLY?!

No sorry, it's OP. It's now an all-purpose core whose existence is being defended by people who just got so used it, they don't want it changed. You just don't want your toy to be taken away is all, there's nothing more to it. From this point on, let's just not talk about balance, now that objectivity can be barely expected in these forums.

I personally don't really care about the direction in which this game moves in anymore, as it seems like nobody is concerned for balance now, but if you have the nerve to tell me or even imply that my points/arguments are silly and are just over-exaggerated, expect a retort.

On the other hand, if anyone wants to have an unbiased discussion about balance or gameplay mechanics in general and how they can be improved, give me a call.