Legions: The Community

[Floks]

Edit: This is the TL: DR version. We have no control over servers. We have no control over the content added. In fact, we have no control over anything related to this game.

Things I believe would benefit the Legions community:

Maps: We need variety. Most complaints revolving around competition have some interest in map variety. This is impossible though because we the community cannot control servers, nor vote on what maps we want to play, and the issue becomes moot.

Server control: I would love to have 2-3 private servers in which we could vote for maps, vote for mission start, and vote kick. I've been told that this is impossible because it is difficult to do and there are a lot of the legal restrictions placed on the development team. So again, moot.

Modding: Games thrive on community development. Unfortunately our community cannot modify Legions due to legal issues. In fact the community has no access to this games development at all. Moot.

Advertising: We have no money, and legally cannot advertise to attract more players. Moot.

From what I can see, three people implement changes in Legions. DeadGuy decides on content, Mabeline codes these changes, and Greaper updates the servers. That is your development team, basically.

According to these people, there is nothing we can do to make Legions more accessible to the community. With this being the case, the player base continues to diminish, and the game is as good as dead. Take a hard look at Legions, and realize that it isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry that so many of us invested time into this game.

 

[DeadGuy]

Edit: This is the TL: DR version. We have no control over servers. We have no control over the content added. In fact, we have no control over anything related to this game.

According to these people, there is nothing we can do to make Legions more accessible to the community. With this being the case, the player base continues to diminish, and the game is as good as dead. Take a hard look at Legions, and realize that it isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry that so many of us invested time into this game.

I don't follow how this is "according to these people."

While that is a rather bleak opinion, I was more referring to your point about how we don't listen to the community. What you said here is relatively true in a glass half empty way since we are still filling the glass. I still think community modding is a possibility but needs to be worked out and requires some finer working code wise.

For the part about having no control, that isn't true at all. We add things to test, people respond and we go from there. Is there any instance you are thinking of specifically? We also listen quite a bit on teamspeak and IRC too, since a lot of feedback on the forums is rather nondescript.

We (Rocky at the head) are currently working on server admins and voting so players will be able to regulate themselves without higher powers needing to be present. While some of you may consider this slow progress we are fully vested into making this game fun, which is why we readily listen to you guys.

Edit: Also I thought our map team has been pretty good about pumping out different varieties of maps, Frost is just the majority favorite. Advertising is not a problem legally either. We will exploring methods of advertisement after we fix a few issues with the game and have added some depth. Players are welcome to advertise on their own though, but I'm unsure the game is ready to be judged yet as this thread proves.

 

[Floks]

According to these people refers to whenever I bring up these issues with members of the development team. Namely you DeadGuy.

As for in game voting, I would be excited about it, if more than 20 people played Legions. In game voting has been overlooked for too long already, the damage is done.

The fact that the community is just now learning about something you're working on kind of hits on the point that we really don't have any control over this game. Changes happen without anyone knowing about it. No one knows what is currently being developed, in fact, our opinions become worthless because information is not readily provided to the community. Of course that's the development teams choice.

 

[JCARTEL]

Wouldn't mind seeing Quarry come back when the map vote system is in place... Gotta love the classics (best map made in my opinion too).

 

[DeadGuy]

According to these people refers to whenever I bring up these issues with members of the development team. Namely you DeadGuy.

As for in game voting, I would be excited about it, if more than 20 people played Legions. In game voting has been overlooked for too long already, the damage is done.

The fact that the community is just now learning about something you're working on kind of hits on the point that we really don't have any control over this game. Changes happen without anyone knowing about it. No one knows what is currently being developed, in fact, our opinions become worthless because information is not readily provided to the community. Of course that's the development teams choice.

Perhaps after things get further along and we advertise we can bring people in. This is why we haven't done so yet, because we know these issues exist. I'm not saying we have executed everything flawlessly but we have progressively taken steps to further the game, even if it isn't happening as fast as we all wish it would. Hopefully those that have left aren't jaded and are willing to come back once the game is in a more ready state with some standard features in place.

On another note, it is a key point for me to try to seam together the Legions playstyle with our plans for added content. We all play this game because of how the game plays currently and we don't want to muck that up at all.

 

[Floks]

On a somewhat humorous note, I'm fairly certain that 3 of the yes votes are Greaper, Bugs, and DeadGuy. There are only about 6 people on the forums right now. Seeing as how you guys are on the development team, don't you feel that your vote is somewhat worthless?

Edit: In response to DeadGuy. That's pretty much why people have been leaving, because they feel like the game/community is being mucked up.

 

[DeadGuy]

I'm actually staying out of it.

 

[Floks]

Legions is dead, mainly because of the stranglehold that the owners and development team have over the game. People continue to stop playing, I'm pretty sure I've covered why.

 

[Fixious]

I'd say we have some control, namely when changes are released. Everyone was fairly...vocal about the recent ammo station change, and was reverted back quickly. The same can be said about maps like Sleepwalker(terrain/spawn change) and Elegiac(night to day, terrain changes). Then there was the whole grenade fiasco(combos), which while I didn't support the change, it was apparently an issue that got fixed(removed from flag carrier). Of course, how can we forget the big LR debate, which is pretty much an on-going project at this point.

So in that regard, yes, I think we have some control over how things work, even if it's just feedback.

 

[BugsPray]

Things I believe would benefit the Legions community:

Maps: We need variety. Most complaints revolving around competition have some interest in map variety. This is impossible though because we the community cannot control servers, nor vote on what maps we want to play, and the issue becomes moot.

As DeadGuy mentioned, we are working toward admin and community voting features. I think this might have been mentioned in Legions Overlive - don't quite remember. Either way, as we mentioned in the State of the Empire Address, player-hosted dedicated servers are a priority for us.

Server control: I would love to have 2-3 private servers in which we could vote for maps, vote for mission start, and vote kick. I've been told that this is impossible because it is difficult to do and there are a lot of the legal restrictions placed on the development team. So again, moot.

I don't know who you heard that from, but it's completely false.

Modding: Games thrive on community development. Unfortunately our community cannot modify Legions due to legal issues. In fact the community has no access to this games development at all. Moot.

You can currently modify all aspects of the Overdrive client. Once the player-hosted dedicated servers are ready, I imagine plenty of access will be made available to modify them to your wishes.

Advertising: We have no money, and legally cannot advertise to attract more players. Moot.

Both of these statements are also false. It's possible that you're thinking of our restriction that we can't directly make money off of Legions. We can take donation and sponsorship, but we are not allowed to monetize the game itself. Currently we do not need any financial support beyond what the community has graciously donated.

From what I can see, three people implement changes in Legions. DeadGuy decides on content, Mabeline codes these changes, and Greaper updates the servers. That is your development team, basically.

A full list of the team (albeit a little outdated) is available here. Many people contribute to Legions, some more than others. DeadGuy, Mabeline, and GReaper, among others, have contributed greatly to the project and should be vigorously thanked/sent beer.

According to these people, there is nothing we can do to make Legions more accessible to the community. With this being the case, the player base continues to diminish, and the game is as good as dead. Take a hard look at Legions, and realize that it isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry that so many of us invested time into this game.

I hope that sentiment isn't universally shared, and that you soon feel otherwise. I, for one, find Legions fun. The entire dev team and a good portion of the community is dedicated to making it more fun.

The fact that the community is just now learning about something you're working on kind of hits on the point that we really don't have any control over this game. Changes happen without anyone knowing about it. No one knows what is currently being developed, in fact, our opinions become worthless because information is not readily provided to the community. Of course that's the development teams choice.

I'm sorry you don't feel as though we communicate what is coming down the pipe as much, but so far most everything we've done and planned has been communicated via standard community channels (blog posts, forum posts, Legions Overlive). Based on community feedback, we've become more open and transparent about what is being developed, which is why we're continuously updating the Public Test channel with content as it becomes available. Every update, there is a blog post, and the updates that go to live should be posted in the change log on the forum. Do you have any suggestions for how we could better update the community?

Edit: Also note that we are continuously updating the development team with players from the community. We recently added both Poponfu and RockeyRex, not to mention most of us are from the original Legions community already.

Edit2: Made a sentence sound less aggressive.

 

[Abandoned]

Moot 4: Advertising.

Floks, you stated that the community "has no money". The community donates money to keep the servers running, this is a generous act by the community. This money is used by the devs to create more suitable servers for players around the world in different locations. The devs listened to what the Asia Players had to say, got some servers with their donations and the JP and SG servers are going well.

You also stated the fact that the devs "legally cannot advertise to attract more players". In-fact, the devs legally cannot make profit from the game itself.

This game is unfinished, still in developement. It seems common sense to me that no-one would want to promote their unfinished project, instead; promoting the real deal - the finished version of the game seems more understandable.

Just remember that you (as in the general community) can bring in friends, show them about this game, doing little bit-by-bit to bring in more players. As GoodJobDino put forth his idea to create T-Shirts of L:O to help the community with the advertising sector, nor being linked to the devs' illegitimacy to "advertse to attract more players".

L:O (as it is concluded) has a steep learning curve. This would need to be addressed directly and fixed in a manner that new-players can play and enjoy the game like everyone else. Advertising and bringing in more players before this issue is addressed by, would just create more problems for the community.

"Therefore the Moot shall fall."

I'm not going to bother summarising my points for the "tl;dr" people out there. It is shame on you for you're inability to read extended text on the internet.

 

[Floks]

I will address each of your points in order.

Every developer, including yourself, has said that player hosted servers are not an option due to legal issues. In fact, it would be great to have you clear this up, seeing as how I'm not sure what's changed. If nothing has changed, then shouldn't we already have player hosted servers? You would think that giving the community the ability to host and mod would be a high development priority. What's Preventing it? Why has it been put off? Server control also falls under this. What exactly is holding back server control? I've noticed a lot of changes to Legions, none of which relate to these issues. It seems to be a high priority item that has been overlooked.

Modding goes back to player hosting again. What exactly is holding this up? You don't seem to respond to the points I'm making, you merely say, "We're going to do it."

As for advertising, why don't we spread the word about Legions then? Every post in the forums suggesting this has been discouraged. It would seem counterintuitive if we want get new players.

Are you confirming that three people contribute the majority of the changes to Legions? Which then confirms the fact that very few people actually contribute to the development of Legions.

Legions used to be fun, but it's not a community game anymore. Let's be honest, a lot of private testers have given up on the game. Most of the people interested in helping are completely ignored by the development team. Their opinions don't matter.

Currently we receive updates when you make them. I for one would like to hear what you're working on. Not see it as you push it onto the test servers. Our input is an afterthought, not involved in the process at all. What do you want for Legions? Player hosted servers! Well here's a grenade. Thanks for listening to the community dev team.

On the note of adding people to the development team. Most of the community is on the team, why the hell don't you just open the whole project up? Obviously it's not a private matter at this point. Might as well have complete transparency.

Your whole argument is full of hypocrisy. You say player hosted servers are an option, and yet they're no where to be seen. You say that we can advertise, and for some reason we don't. You say that the development team is growing, and yet it really only has three main members. Show me change, or even that you're working on these issues, and I'd have some faith, but all I've seen is simple content changes and a controlling development team.

 

[Karnage]

I have to disagree with Floks, even though I do feel some of his frustration. The dev. team has been really transparent about what they are doing and they ask us for our opinions about almost everything. There are new things happening almost every week too and we know they are working on giving us admin and voting etc. I don't think any of the things (besides the advertising problem perhaps) you mention are the reason for Legions' lack of popularity. Mostly I reckon it's probably the learning curve that frightens people off. I don't think the game should be changed in order to hook more people but I am sure there are things that can be done to encourage people to join. You talk about people dropping out but if you think about it, even the mainstream games become boring after a while and people stop playing them too. A lot of the people here have been playing Legions for four years or so. That's pretty remarkable for such a humble game, if you ask me.

 

[Floks]

Redundant

Are you just reiterating what Bugs said? Saying that you can advertise does not explain why you are not advertising. The usual excuse has to do with the game being "incomplete." Apparently Legions is such a worthless game that we won't even promote it.

 

[Karnage]

On the other hand I do agree that there is some urgency when it comes to bringing out the player-hosted servers.

 

[GReaper]

All of these issues come down to one thing - who the hell is going to code/create it?

We've got limited resources and can't guarantee everything. Perhaps you'd like to consider that some of us developers are pissed off at some of the missing parts of the game? We host the game and suffer from the issues of missing features ourselves, and usually it's me trying to find a workaround until someone adds the feature to the game.

Somehow I don't think we're going to ever create a game which would ever make you happy. Even when we say a feature is coming soon - you've already dismissed it as being too late. I somehow doubt you'd be satisfied if we addressed all of the issues you've mentioned here, as you'd probably be creating new arguments for what the game lacks.

If you don't enjoy it, just let it go. You don't have to come to the forums to create walls of text if you think we're already beyond saving.

 

[Karnage]

To some extent you might be answering your own questions Floks...the dev team is small - changes take time. I would not like to see community modding to be honest. Sounds like chaos to me.

 

[Floks]

I have to disagree with Floks, even though I do feel some of his frustration. The dev. team has been really transparent about what they are doing and they ask us for our opinions about almost everything. There are new things happening almost every week too and we know they are working on giving us admin and voting etc. I don't think any of the things (besides the advertising problem perhaps) you mention are the reason for Legions' lack of popularity. Mostly I reckon it's probably the learning curve that frightens people off. I don't think the game should be changed in order to hook more people but I am sure there are things that can be done to encourage people to join. You talk about people dropping out but if you think about it, even the mainstream games become boring after a while and people stop playing them too. A lot of the people here have been playing Legions for four years or so. That's pretty remarkable for such a humble game, if you ask me.

My points have nothing to do with the games popularity. It has to do with the communities involvement, and how the game is being developed. I've seen very little community impact on this games progress. Asking for opinions does not translate to listening to those opinions. I talk about people dropping out, and no one coming in. The only changes to this game have been content based. There have been zero changes aimed at giving the community more access to this game. As I've stated, and had confirmed, few people control the direction of this game.

 

[ripperthedipper]

This game is unfinished, still in developement. It seems common sense to me that no-one would want to promote their unfinished project, instead; promoting the real deal - the finished version of the game seems more understandable.

There is a slight difference between advertising an unfinished game and saying it is finished, and advertising a game and saying it is still in (open) beta.
I mean, how many games have already been advertised before they even got released, or have been playable before there actually was a final version.

Finishing a game is one thing, attracting players is another thing.

 

[Floks]

All of these issues come down to one thing - who the hell is going to code/create it?

Release the game to the community. I've been saying this for a long time. If this team of three is so swamped, release the game to the community. O wait, you can't because of some obscure reason that you can't specify. I think it has to do with legal issues? That you say are no longer an issue?

Edit: I bolded it. I mean really GReaper?

Edit2: I wanted it to be bigger.