Legions physics

Disci

Old man
Ace of Aces had something like this. The reticle would light up a transparent red when the crosshair was aimed with the correct lead needed to hit the enemy. I think this would be a good idea, but it should only take place if the player is at a certain velocity, I.E., 80 M.

Why? Do you not want to aim yourself and rather rely on aim assist? With that kind of thinking we should have ski assist that would downjet for you when you land down to the slope and meter that shows you how much you need to jet to the next slope effectively.
 

Daphinicus

Private Tester
I would remind folks, once again, that however much you might disagree with someone's else's opinions on ideas, taking them to illogical extremes does little to buttress your arguments, and much to reinforce your douchiness. It's a trap all of us unwittingly fall into, and all of us should do much more to try to avoid.
 

SeymourGore

Flatulent Cherub
Why? Do you not want to aim yourself and rather rely on aim assist? With that kind of thinking we should have ski assist that would downjet for you when you land down to the slope and meter that shows you how much you need to jet to the next slope effectively.

I remember at one point MungeParty detailing something similar to this (also Astrum brought up a similar system). Basically, the landscape changed colour to correspond to where you should be landing, etc. At least, that's how I think it was described as. Seymour's not good with details.
 

skypredator

Member
Why? Do you not want to aim yourself and rather rely on aim assist? With that kind of thinking we should have ski assist that would downjet for you when you land down to the slope and meter that shows you how much you need to jet to the next slope effectively.

Then we should take the aiming helper out of Ace of Aces completely. All I was doing was clarifying what the poster of this thread was saying, not supporting his idea. There's a little bit of critical thinkin' for ya.
 

skypredator

Member
I am keeping that in mind, Rip. I'm just saying that if AoA gets the aim assist, all who play it are essentially pansies with no skill. At least that's what Dis basically said. I was re-inforcing what the poster said. I wasn't agreeing with him. It seems no one 'round here - besides Seymour and Shade - like to take what is said literaly when necessary. To sharpen my already pointy point, I said I was clarifying what the poster of this thread meant. I was not agreeing with him on his idea. Does this make it a little easier to understand? ;)
 

Aki

Member
Once again, some of you are not listening (*coughskycough*). The system I am talking about is nothing like Ace of Aces. There is no mainstream video game that uses LCOS. If you want games to compare to, you NEED to look at good flight simulators. Jane's, Falcon 4, Microsoft Combat Flight Sim, etc. Not Ace Combat or Ace of Aces or other ARCADE games. I'm not proposing a system which allows you to get t3h ub3r hai sc0r3 in an arcade shooter , I'm talking about a system that is used by professionals in the real world to accomplish a very difficult task effectively. The sooner this is understood, the sooner I can stop repeating myself and the sooner we can discuss the merits of the system.

I've already given as detailed and clear a description as I can manage and linked to a video of the real thing in action. I'm starting to get frustrated; I'm not repeating myself again. If you can't understand what I'm talking about, get out of the thread--you're only driving me insane and inspiring the wrong kind of discussion. Go and do your own research--read about the electronic gunsights used in WWII as that technology forms the basis for modern LCOS. Don't read about EEGS as it's not the same thing. Have fun.
 

Astrum

Super Special R&D
I'm coming to your rescue, Aki!

A bit on actually hitting a target in Legions. There are two components that factor into a successful hit in mid-air, first is your velocity relative to the rest of the world, second is your opponents velocity relative to the rest of the world. The first part, your velocity, is needed because projectiles "inherit" velocity from their parent (you, the player). Think of it like this, you're on a train going 100 miles per hour, you have a gun which shoots a bullet at 100 mph (slow bullet). Hypothetically if you disregard air resistance, gravity, and all of that, if you shoot the gun from the front of the train facing forwards, the bullet will travel at 100 mph away from you. However, if there's someone on the side of the track that's stationary he will see the bullet traveling at 200mph relative to him (and the ground) and the train going at 100mph. Of course if you shoot out the back the bullet will have zero velocity relative to the observer on the ground, although it'll be traveling 100 mph away from the person on the train. If you shoot out the side it will actually go away from the train at a 45 degree angle traveling at 141 mph according to the observer on the ground; the person on the train will see it traveling directly away from them at 100 mph.[1] The second part is your opponents velocity. You need to be able to accurately determine where he will be so you can aim there to actually hit him. Only the laser rifle is a hitscan weapon, every other weapon has projectile travel time. That means as the bullet, rocket, or grenade is going towards the enemy, he's moving. So you need to be able to fire where he's moving to so that your projectile and his body end up in the same place at the same time. Bam, mid-air!

This LCOS type system focuses on the first part only. It shows you where you're firing relative to the ground taking into account velocity inheritance. This does not take into account where your enemy is or will be, it has zero knowledge of that. I'll put it to you this way, when you're trying to MA someone you almost never aim directly at them, you will almost always miss. However, even if you aim at where they are going to be (assuming the projectilet and opponent would get there at the same time) you will still probably miss. It's not enough to fire at where they're going to be because your projectiles do not go straight from your gun to where you're aiming except when you're standing still and a few edge cases while moving. If this wasn't the case you could fire a projectile that's going slower than you're traveling, wouldn't that suck? Although apparently this was the case in that god awful T:V game ;).

So now that I've actually explained aiming let's go into why you're not going to become an MA god with this. I've actually done the calculations taking into account the player hit box. Even at close ranges such as 30 meters and only going 50 m/s (which is basically in your face in Legions and pretty darn slow) you will still miss if you don't lead your target with the LCOS crosshair. Granted not by much, I think it was like a meter or something (and assuming my calculations were correct going from the actual code). Further that's one more thing to track on your HUD. Unlike the static crosshair this thing will be bouncing around a lot as you move through the map. It definitely would make MAs easier in some circumstances, though it becomes practically useless at beyond 50m since a player can change directions so easily. It would make ground pounding quite a bit easier, though if you can't ground pound you need to practice more anyway.

Really this is a way to learn how projectiles actually act. It's not auto-aim in any sense of the term nor is it going to make you an MA god, although it might increase your chances of a successful MA in certain situations. So I actually think this idea has some merit. However, as I originally stated I think there's other things that need to be focused on unfortunately.

I remember at one point MungeParty detailing something similar to this (also Astrum brought up a similar system). Basically, the landscape changed colour to correspond to where you should be landing, etc. At least, that's how I think it was described as. Seymour's not good with details.

I wasn't around for this discussion with Munge. I don't think I've ever talked about a ski assist system, though perhaps I have. I did discuss bot skiing and how to get it to work on a map. That could be adapted for ski assist although the computations are complex and there's very large gray areas where it'd have to be kludged together. Btw, don't take this as bots are going to be put into Legions; it's not happening. It was just a thought experiment, and I'm not even one of the developers. If you misquote me I shall destroy you ;).

[1] Note that velocity "inheritance" does not act like this in Legions. For instance if you're traveling at 205 m/s (speed of the rocket) and face backwards and fire the rocket won't float in mid air. The Grenade launcher will simply fall to the ground if you oppose its speed though. In other words the three projectile weapons have different velocity inheritance factors, so each weapon acts differently. My train example was only meant to illustrate the concept.
 

SeymourGore

Flatulent Cherub
Astrum's been working on this post forever, btw. I think it was a week or two ago he wanted to make this post demonstrating that mr Aki was not proposing a 'aim assist'.

Also, I think Astrum just confirmed Legions bots!

PS: tl;dr
 

Astrum

Super Special R&D
Actually the post I was originally going to write (which I have written in a text file to some extent) was much more detailed with my actual calculations as well as some planned graphics for visualization of what I'm talking about. However, as Gheist always says nobody reads long posts; so I decided not to go to all of the trouble when everyone would simply skip over it and repeat their unsubstantiated nonsense. My previous post, with the exception of one paragraph, was written on the fly ;).
 

Aki

Member
Thank you, Astrum!!! I could love you forever, but I don't do online relationships ;) .

Actually, I would love to see that original post. If it hasn't already become obvious, I'm a total geek who loves to analyze this kind of stuff with a Ti-89 and then try to write a Python 3 program to model it (it's how I'm teaching myself programming).

I just hope that what you've posted is enough for some people to 'get it.' Lord knows I've been trying for weeks.
 

Gheist

King of all Goblins
[...] However, as Gheist always says nobody reads long posts [...]
Sad but true. They should though! (also, people are stupid). I love your long ones. ;)
I remember at one point MungeParty detailing something similar to this [...] Basically, the landscape changed colour to correspond to where you should be landing, etc. At least, that's how I think it was described as. Seymour's not good with details.
If I remember correctly, that was one of the ideas (or better, one of the very very early concepts) for "helmet/visor mods".

PS:
[...] bots are going to be put into Legions [...]
 

masterluso

Member
Ah, enlightenment. It makes since now, but I like my static reticle and would prefer to not have something bouncing around showing me where my bullets will go. But at least I understand now.
 

Aki

Member
Ah, enlightenment. It makes since now, but I like my static reticle and would prefer to not have something bouncing around showing me where my bullets will go. But at least I understand now.

That's good. You are most certainly entitled to your opinion; I'm just glad that what to have an opinion on has become clear :D .
 

Lin

Member
This doesn't solve the problem that even if it won't tell you exactly where to aim, it's still a big benefit, that could potentially become unbalanced. I'm not going to this one specifically cheating, but we need to look at where mods become hacks.
 
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