Increase in Maneuverability and Player Cores

[Redvan]

You're making generalizations here. When I underwent the transition from Legions to Tribes, everything was much harder.

This is because you just started playing Tribes. Not because it's harder.

This is exactly my point. You suggested that we implement players cores, which is a very good idea. But adding a maneuverability core implies increased maneuverability for those who choose to use it (yes, I'm stating the obvious). Consequently though, it'll be even harder for people to hit their enemies, especially while dueling and especially when enemies are using the outrider class. People using outriders in combination with the maneuverability core will easily avoid splash and MA's, making the game much harder for both veterans and newbloods. What I said in my first post was that your suggestion could work if Mabel (or whoever is in charge of coding) decreases the base maneuverability value (of all classes) so that when player cores are introduced, we don't have an outrider-LO-jumparoundbase-hit&run fest in every game (because trust me, there are people who actually bother doing that).

Player cores would have to be balanced like anything else. If it means that ORs can't use certain cores like maneuverability, that's just something that'll have to be worked out.

Well. You get a bad view from vids really. It's not as hectic as Legions dueling, but it's not as slow as some of the people in here tells you it is. Todays Tribes is far more fast paced than it used to be and more unpredictable. After 10+ years people knows the maps like back of their own hand, which lets them to improvise as much as they want. Beacon stops/jumps makes direction changes/avoiding to get pounded lot easier and they are used regular basis. Some players are damn hard be shot at due these reasons. Overall speed of the game has increased tremendously compaired to old days.

I agree it's easier to get hit but that thing alone has made the game evolve to the point where speed and using terrain to cover you from shots is the only way to survive. If you're good at all above, you're pretty damn good at not getting hit. It's not Legions fast and definately not Quake fast either, but it's a different game today than most of you got used to, who played Tribes in the past.

Hence the reason someone new to tribes would think it's harder. They're playing vs people that have played for 10 years.

 

[Outlawl]

Lets keep the personal insults out of this, guys.

Resume!

 

[Redvan]

You're making generalizations here. When I underwent the transition from Legions to Tribes, everything was much harder.

But adding a maneuverability core implies increased maneuverability for those who choose to use it (yes, I'm stating the obvious). Consequently though, it'll be even harder for people to hit their enemies, especially while dueling and especially when enemies are using the outrider class.

Sorry, didn't notice this contradiction the first time around.

So, which is it? Is Tribes harder or is L:O harder? You seem to be implying that increased maneuverability will make the game harder, and we already have determined that L:O has more maneuverability than Tribes.

Would you agree that more maneuverability means it's harder to hit?

Now, when you have less maneuverability, it's easier to predict a players position when you want to fire, correct? Add to that the fact that Tribes weapons have much higher splash than L:O weapons, you have a much larger margin of error, true?

I'll agree, your transition to Tribes was hard. You have less maneuverability to avoid getting hit by people who have been aiming with those mechanics for 10+ years. However, the difficulty is more the result of your survivability, not so much how well you aim. Due to the low maneuverability of Tribes, once you get that down and aiming down, you'll have no problem.

 

[RockeyRex]

*sigh*
Why is this conversation even going on? What are we after here?

Learing curve? That steep mountain that everyone desperately tries to climb up? Meeh. The only thing to give you hard time ever is the skiing and evergy control.

Difficulty in aiming? Sure, point and click doesn't apply to most weapons. on either game. It's still all about prediction. (Oh and if you say slower is easier, go *dance* yourself.)

Difficulty in dodging? Yeah, the only real dodging you can ever do in legions is to dodge before the shot. Possibly you can dodge the half invisible rockets +50m away after it has been shot as well.

So Legions is harder than Tribes because of the speed? No, not really...
Hint: Slower speed IN EVERYTHING. (Exept for zooming. That was instant.)

Bottom line:
Funny how you people have an urge to come to this subject. Play whatever the *dance* you like. It all comes down to that anyways you *dancing* e-peen wanging "see you next tuesdays"*.

* Seymour edit, didn't want to delete the post as there was a conversation going on!

 

[Strife]

*sigh* (

Oh and if you say slower is easier, go *dance* yourself)

How is it not? I understand that in Tribes the movement is a lot slower and the projectiles are as well, however you are given much more time to acquire a target and lead accordingly, which takes away from any reflexes or quick thinking that a shot in a faster game would require. While I understand that some games have different skill sets, and that's completely fine, leading is progressively easier the slower the game is.

So Legions is harder than Tribes because of the speed? No, not really...

Hint: Slower speed IN EVERYTHING. (Exept for zooming. That was instant.)

I would say so, yes. Like I mentioned above, leading is progressively easier the slower the game is and, consequently, when leading is the primary mechanic (for lack of a better word) for aiming in the game, the game itself is easier as long as the game relies heavily upon combat, which it obviously does.

Bottom line:

Funny how you people have an urge to come to this subject. Play whatever the *dance* you like. It all comes down to that anyways you *dancing* e-peen wanging cunts.

They are "playing whatever the *dance* they like". Having a debate such as this implies nothing to the contrary.

(The below is not directed at anyone in specific.)

What, exactly, is wrong with trying to bring about some change in a game you enjoy? It's entirely possible that it just might be me being biased but it seems as if the general Tribes population (I almost included the Legions community but at least some people are making an effort to get new ideas pushed through. Unfortunately, even though it is to be expected, there is significant influence from Tribes players - the kind that are a prime example of what I'm talking about here.) invariably opposes innovation and change. Why? This is a genuine question that has bothered me for quite some time. The only answer I can give myself is that they're complacent with the "skills" they currently have and have been practicing for years on end and do not wish to learn new things. Perhaps because they don't enjoy challenges? I don't know. The "bottom line" is that some people enjoy challenging themselves in games and exploring new possibilities for the games they play. Granted, they aren't the vast majority (surprise), but, like their close-minded counterparts, will probably always exist.

 

[RockeyRex]

...That last... Made no sense.

So... What the hell is this all about now?
To make Tribes like Legions or to make Legions like Tribes? Whoa. I don't even...
And after that you say:

It's entirely possible that it just might be me being biased but it seems as if the general Tribes population invariably opposes innovation and change

The *dance*? Are you badmouting Tribes for not wanting different sort of games? While clearly your first impression gives out that you want the games to be more alike. And only reason why a triber would like the game to be more LIKE Tribes is because Tribes is very *dancing* dead.

The only answer I can give myself is that they're complacent with the "skills" they currently have and have been practicing for years on end and do not wish to learn new things.

Why are you telling me this after my clear view that this whole debate is just a big clash of e-peenery on who is more skilled(or plays a more skilled game)?

Eventually mods will be there. Thay shall make all your fantasies true (except bringing back 1998). And I will be there as well. Slowing the game down to a turtle. But till then, lemme enjoy me some of this Legions I herd about.

 

[Strife]

I am a proponent of the idea of this thread (i.e., increased maneuverability and so forth) so I definitely do not want Legions and Tribes to be any more similar than they already are as far as movement and physics are concerned. In fact, I want Legions to be very different from Tribes. I want Legions to have something akin to an OD-Dodge core. I would like combo spam to be removed completely, or made a lot more difficult. Hell, I'd even like splash damage to be negligible and for CGS to be re-implement since the other specialists are still here. I am well aware of the futility of desiring such things, though. Fortunately, with modding coming out, there will be a lot of possibilities since we have a few people capable of doing work.

 

[OmniNept]

*sigh*
Why is this conversation even going on? What are we after here?

Had you read the thread in its entirety, you'd know why this conversation is occurring and what the participants are seeking.

This conversation is occurring because people disagree on an important game-design aspect. The participants hope to persuade others (and ostensibly bugsco) that their opinions are “correct”. So really, Rockey, it's a debate much like any other; and it's even been civil, by and large. Judging from Xtremespeed's “like”, he understood his contradiction, which indicates the discussion was winding down. Frankly, were you actually interested in seeing fewer such posts, you should've kept quiet. All you've done is list several easily-refuted points, prompted a Nept response, MADE YOURSELF LOOK REALLY ANGRY AND PERHAPS REVEALED YOUR OVULATION CYCLE RARWARWWARRRWRAGLARGLE.

So onto the discussion!

Learing curve? That steep mountain that everyone desperately tries to climb up? Meeh. The only thing to give you hard time ever is the skiing and evergy control.

This statement says nothing. It borders on straw man by deliberately understating the difficulty of a game and ignoring the issue under contention: aiming. Aiming factors heavily into a game's learning curve and is affected massively by movement mechanics.

Difficulty in aiming? Sure, point and click doesn't apply to most weapons. on either game. It's still all about prediction. (Oh and if you say slower is easier, go *dance* yourself.)

This statement, having been oversimplified into oblivion, is worth mentioning only for its parenthetical content. Do you have anything backing it besides preemptive ad hominem?

Two counterpoints:

1. In an FPS, slower is often easier. Why? The faster a game (and by faster, I don't mean straight-line movement so much as directional changes), the less time players have to position their shots.​

A simple analogy:
Do you know how to ski? No, I mean actual skiing. And are you aware of moguls? They're bumps, essentially, placed in the skier's path. These are moguls: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c564YNYR15U

It is difficult to ski moguls quickly (as you might imagine), but any idiot can slowly navigate the individual bumps. How is this analogous to gaming? It is easy to spend a few seconds lining up a shot, even one requiring leading and prediction (assuming some experience with the game); it is hard, however, to aim your shots in milliseconds. Games that feature rapid directional changes demand that you aim in milliseconds because your target is ceaselessly shifting.

The aforementioned manuverability cores wouldn't impact the beloved long-range MA's, or on-rails capping. Instead, they'd affect only low-speed dueling movement which would, IMO, be wonderful: you'd have both long-range prediction and short-range reaction shots..

2. The more degrees of freedom in movement mechanics, the harder it is to aim. Tribes has less movement than does Legions, making it an easier game, aiming-wise. Now don't get all uppity, because this isn't opinion – it's simple cognitive psychology, supported by research. The more uncertainty in a system, the more your brain has to calculate and anticipate, and the slower it performs. Simply put, the more restrictions placed on movement (the greater the redundancy in the system), the less strain on your brain, the easier it is to aim.​

The funny thing about Tribers is their laudatory attitude toward “z-axis”. Tribes is great! It has “z-axis” gameplay like no other! And it's sort of true. You can float in the air, travel quickly along straight lines, and have a lot of fun, definitely. Here's the problem though, at least with respect to aiming: In adding z-axis gameplay, TRIBES REMOVES ANOTHER AXIS. You can float up, but you can't float sideways, and you can't change direction in the air. Aiming is not more difficult because the net system redundancy remains constant. You may as well applaud CS bunny hopping for its ever-so-slight addition of a tertiary axis.

I think Strife covered the rest quite well. It's important to realize, Rockey, that this isn't about “epeen”: it's about you entering a civil discussion in an overly-aggressive manner; and being just plain wrong to boot. Many players simply wish Legions were more challenging, and some of them are expressing their opinions here. If you cannot follow suite by politely present actual arguments, then please refrain from posting. Judging from your writing, it'd do your blood pressure some good.

 

[phanakapan]

I am a proponent of the idea of this thread (i.e., increased maneuverability and so forth) so I definitely do not want Legions and Tribes to be any more similar than they already are as far as movement and physics are concerned. In fact, I want Legions to be very different from Tribes. I want Legions to have something akin to an OD-Dodge core. I would like combo spam to be removed completely, or made a lot more difficult. Hell, I'd even like splash damage to be negligible and for CGS to be re-implement since the other specialists are still here. I am well aware of the futility of desiring such things, though. Fortunately, with modding coming out, there will be a lot of possibilities since we have a few people capable of doing work.

Not to derail the thread, but I don't see the point of CGS. The chaingun is already the most overused weapon in the game in its current state. It is arguably the quickest to kill other players (especially in the air, which is where most players are most of the time), with very little risk to reward for its use (quick reload, constant sustained damage, overheat really only works if you're completely spamming it like a noob), and is effective at pretty much any range (except very very long range while stationary). I would also like to say that the current RLS is horribly worthless and clusters are still pretty much meh compared to an actual mortar-like weapon. Sniper spec is alright, but gimped by a lack of splash and speed potential. I don't see how you would balance CGS in a similar way.

i like the idea of a dodge core.

 

[Buhlitz]

I have been a supporter of interchangeable OD cores for quite some time now, I remember it was something we discussed in the office at length so you are definitely onto something. I think I even wrote a long post about this on the old forums.

All sorts of fun stuff

Health/Regen Core
Teleport Core
Anti Gravity Core (freezes projectiles or players around you or sucks them to you then blast them out)
EMP Core(could also be a grenade)
Contagious OD Core
Insta OD core
Longer Slower Core
Faster Shorter Core
Normal OD Core
Bigger Wake Core
DOT Wake Core
Barrier Core (think Tron/2d Worm game)
Stealth Core
Shield Core
Maneuverability Core : I actually Played with this idea a bit allowing OD to remain active while dropping to as low as like 30, the things you could do were pretty silly but boy was it fun.

(Think Core as a Pack/Ability and the ideas come for days)

 

[Propkid]

Health/Regen Core
Teleport Core
Anti Gravity Core (freezes projectiles or players around you or sucks them to you then blast them out)
EMP Core(could also be a grenade)
Contagious OD Core
Insta OD core
Longer Slower Core
Faster Shorter Core
Normal OD Core
Bigger Wake Core
DOT Wake Core
Barrier Core (think Tron/2d Worm game)
Stealth Core
Shield Core
Maneuverability Core : I actually Played with this idea a bit allowing OD to remain active while dropping to as low as like 30, the things you could do were pretty silly but boy was it fun.

Maneuverability altering cores: yes, but the above list is going over the top a little. I mean all the ones I made bold. Let's keep Legions still somewhat reliant on the actual ability of the player, not on the pre-action choices he makes.

EDIT: oh, and IMO we can't really say that Legions is harder than Tribes and vice-versa. Talk about speed affecting the diffuculty... First of all there are two ends to this argument: you are also moving slower, meaning you are also easier to hit. Aiming is surely one of the most important 'difficulty' determining factors, but so is surviving the other person's aiming. 'Dodging' per say (ie. using your reaction time to prevent the projectile from hitting you) may not be real in L:O, but avoiding sure is (ie. knowing when the enemy's gun is reloading so you can land safely, knowing at what angles is it hard for them to shoot you, knowing where they think you'll land and so on). The window for an MA might be further away from an enemy player due to his high speed, but does that make it so much harder to hit him?
Same goes for maneuverability. If it's increased then you are just about as hard to hit as he is. Yes, the player acceleration does matter in aiming difficulty, but the difference between L:O and Tribes acceleration doesn't make such a great difference in difficulty. L:O is still pretty easy once you get hang of the physics.

 

[Heartsong]

L:O is still pretty easy once you get hang of the physics.

I don't think that Nept or Striffles would ever call L:O hard.

In fact, I'd assume that that's their main concern.

 

[Propkid]

I don't think that Nept or Striffles would ever call L:O hard.

In fact, I'd assume that that's their main concern.

Don't look at me like that. I'm helluva confused as to what this thread has gone into.

 

[Redvan]

EDIT: oh, and IMO we can't really say that Legions is harder than Tribes and vice-versa.

did u read nepts post?

 

[phanakapan]

Legions is harder as far as movement and aiming are concerned because of the extra movement abilities of strafing midair and downjet and the overall faster pace. I played tribes since the very beginning through all levels of comp and from a very basic standpoint aiming and moving are more difficult in legions. Tribes as a whole was "harder" simply because of the complexity of the strategy involved based on more weapons, deployables, much larger player base, etc.

 

[Redvan]

Legions is harder as far as movement and aiming are concerned because of the extra movement abilities of strafing midair and downjet and the overall faster pace. I played tribes since the very beginning through all levels of comp and from a very basic standpoint aiming and moving are more difficult in legions. Tribes as a whole was "harder" simply because of the complexity of the strategy involved based on more weapons, deployables, much larger player base, etc.

I'd absolutely agree with that.

Implementing some player cores would help with increasing the complexity of L:O. Just a matter of finding the right ones. I do think maneuverability should certainly be an option though.

can any one please lock this thread.

who are you to decide where my thread goes? At least, last I checked I was the OP.

 

[T[h]E Dis[as]teR]

who are you to decide where my thread goes? At least, last I checked I was the OP.

last time i checked this thread was about maneuverability and player cores not comparing tribes with L:O

 

[Heartsong]

last time i checked this thread was about maneuverability and player cores not comparing tribes with L:O

Brotip: The OP makes a direct comparison between Tribes 2 and Legions in reference to learning curve.

 

[T[h]E Dis[as]teR]

Tribes and L:O are different games if you like to play Tribes play it and if you like to play L:O play it
why do you want to combine Tribes in L:O ???

 

[SeymourGore]

Yar, don't see a reason to lock this thread, there has been some good discussion in here. Carry on!