Increase in Maneuverability and Player Cores

[Redvan]

Continuing on from my proposition in the splash thread, here is a more in depth look at increasing maneuverability:

How should an increase in maneuverability be done? Either increase it for all classes, or add "player cores". An increase for all classes is pretty self explanatory, so, I'll leave it at that.

Player Cores: If a "Player Core" system is introduced, you could have cores such as OD, Maneuverability, and Health... Essentially, player cores enhance a specific aspect of the player, deployables would not use a core slot, rather, a backpack slot. But that's for another discussion another time.

OD Core: Gives the ability to use OD. Cappers would benefit the most from this as they can run either OD routes, or routes that require no OD, but still have the option if they go missed/need to improvise. HoF will also benefit from this core for known reasons.

Maneuverability Core: If chosen, player will have increased maneuverability. This does NOT increase energy (increasing energy does as little to increase maneuverability as filling your car's gas tank to full and expecting to make quicker turns as a result). Essentially, players will be able to accelerate faster in all directions, thus, somewhat of a dodge if you will.

LO and LD will benefit the most having the ability to quickly move away from incoming fire.

Health Core: Gives an increase in health. Same maneuverability and energy as we know in current version, but no OD, and slightly more health. Players that want to tank for whatever reason would like this.

Any core can be used on any class.

That's my idea for Player Cores. Now I'm going to transition into why I feel we should increase maneuverability, and what it's affect on gameplay would be:

EFFECT ON SPLASH
While I've wanted an increase in maneuverability for a long time, it's the splash damage that is making me write this. So I'll start there. More maneuverability = better ability to avoid splash. If the Player Core idea were implemented, there would be plenty enough people using the other cores so that noobs wouldn't rage quit because they can't hit anything (not that that was ever a problem in the first place, but some think it is, so I'm entertaining the idea).

EFFECT ON CAP ROUTES
Increasing maneuverability doesn't necessarily mean capping routes will be easier. Adding more maneuverability will be negligible in this aspect. The terrain doesn't change, so, once you know the route, no matter how much maneuverability you have, you'll be doing the same thing anyway. It really wont matter.

If people are worried about making routes too easy we could have the increased maneuverability only take effect when below a certain speed. Kinda like OD can only be used over 88, increased maneuverability can only be used when < XX units/time.

EFFECT ON BODY BLOCKING
Technically, yes, it will make bb easier as you are accelerating quicker. But remember, given the Player Core model, only certain people will be able to do it, thus, not everyone will be using it.

EFFECT ON OTHER THINGS
Other things will be effected too, but, I'm rather brain farted right now, so, I'll leave it at that.



As a closing thought, remember this: If the learning curve is already "too steep", increasing it more to enhance the game isn't going to change anything. The player that want's to learn will stay and learn no matter how steep the curve is. It's simply a matter of how much instant gratification people are looking for. If the current curve is too high for them, increasing it more won't make a difference, they already quit in their heads.

And as a closeing thought part 2: As Shade said, it's not that the game has a huge learning curve, it's that there is no method to teach the basics, thus, people are left to flounder around aimlessly. Look at Tribes 2, considered to have a steep learning curve, it also had a tutorial that, if used, got you quite ready for PUBs. The difference between L:O and T2 is not that L:O has too high a curve, it's that it doesn't have a method to introduce players.

ohohoh, and closing thought part 3: I just remembered this. If the Player Core system were introduced, and only, say, 2 of the cores were widely used, that does not necessarily mean there is an imbalance with the 3rd core. Tribes 2 had many packs, yet the most common ones were undoubtedly the energy pack and shield pack. It's simply player preference. We do not need to have all cores being equally used. Just a quick tip on balancing.

EDIT: Took out some of my "easy" statements as I'm not trying to offend people/put myself above anyone.

 

[Astrum]

The core idea (although maybe in a different name) was suggested back on the old black IA forums. I do remember one thing in the thread, and I believe Nept talked about this in IRC although not necessarily in the context of swappable cores, which referred to maneuverability. Not quite the way you have described it, but as a UT style dodge system. That old thread is a bit fuzzy to me but I think it was basically like a dodging OD, small amount of health loss and energy loss, but you'd dodge/OD dodge or something similar a few meters in a specific direction you choose. Not that this idea and your idea are completely the same, but it's something to think about.

I actually do like this idea for the same reason it was good in Tribes. Although if this idea were to be implemented I have a few comments. Currently OD acts differently between the Sentinel and the other two classes. I understand why this is, but having the same core do different things in different classes is a bit iffy tbh. Second these cores would need to be useful, but not required. By that I mean in Tribes you could HoF without a shield pack, you can cap without an energy pack, you can HO without an ammo pack. A role didn't necessarily require a pack to work. I've seen cappers use shield packs, repair packs, sensor jammer packs, and cloaking packs (in T2) and nothing at all quite well. As much as OD opens up routes, it also constricts some aspects of the game. So if this core idea ever came to fruition there would need to be quite a lot of thought put into it and how it would work.

 

[Immanent]

Stolen from seymour? nevertheless i agree

 

[SeymourGore]

Maneuverability Core: If chosen, player will have increased maneuverability. This does NOT increase energy (increasing energy does as little to increase maneuverability as filling your car's gas tank to full and expecting to make quicker turns as a result). Essentially, players will be able to accelerate faster in all directions, thus, somewhat of a dodge if you will.

A good idea, personally Seymour's a fan of a more active dodge, say something similar to the double tap of the UT system, and I don't know how I feel about a 'dodge' core. I'd prefer a default dodge system (say a dodge maneuver that halts energy regeneration) that's available to everyone, but can also be improved on through a passive item. At the end of this post I'll paste in a dodge system to take a look at.

Health Core: Gives an increase in health. Same maneuverability and energy as we know in current version, but no OD, and slightly more health. Players that want to tank for whatever reason would like this.

That would be interesting, it would make for stronger, longer lasting HoFs and other positions which may need to emphasize damage absorption.

EDIT: Took out some of my "easy" statements as I'm not trying to offend people/put myself above anyone.

Mr Redvan's a sweetheart!

Stolen from seymour? nevertheless i agree

Ah, it wasn't stolen. There were a few Core threads and mine was never the first. Seymour's always been a big fan of multiple Cores and would like to see increased mobility at the 'slower speeds'.

Anyhow, so here's that post from the forums. I believe it was in response to a debate over increased mobility, and was Seymour's attempt at finding a happy medium. Again, don't take it as anything official, it was just brainstorming. Quick background point, the 'passive item' was an item that would need to be picked up at an inventory station and was not available at spawn.

Dash
By double tapping a movement key, the Legionnaire makes a quick dash in that direction. The action does not drain any energy, but it halts the regeneration of energy until after the move is completed. This movement can be used on the ground and in the air. There would also be a short delay after the movement before it can be used again. The Dash would not be armour specific and would be usable by all armour types. Also the player is unable to perform the dash while at a high velocity.

Used skillfully, it would give the player increased agility, however, if overused the player would be at a disadvantage as their energy would be slower to replenish, leaving them open to attack.

Example:
A HoF successfully defended his flag against one capper, however another capper is incoming. A quick dash, and the HoF is able to cover the flag again.

Double Jump
The Double Jump allows the Legionnaire to perform an additional jump while in mid air. The term 'Double Jump' is kinda misleading if you think of it in context with the classic double jump, meaning that the jump would need to be performed consecutively. In this version the maneuver can be made at anytime in flight, allowing additional versatility in its use.

To actually perform the maneuver when in midair, you need to let go of the 'Activate Jets' key, then hit the jump key. This would cause the Legionnaire to burst himself vertically (like a midair jump). I was thinking graphically, this move could be represented simply by a burst of energy at the Legionnaire's boots. The move will not drain energy, however, just like the Dash, it halts energy regeneration.

Examples:
The enemy capper is approaching, you're attempting to body block, realize that you do not have enough height and make a quick double jump to achieve that height BBing the capper.

You're falling and realize you're not going to make it to your base's platform due to your energy running out, the double jump gives you just enough height to safely make it to the platform.

Agility Upgrade
This passive item would increase the effectiveness of the Dash and Double Jump by removing the energy regeneration restriction. In other words, when you perform the Dash (or Double Jump), your energy still recharges normally.

 

[Redvan]

The core idea (although maybe in a different name) was suggested back on the old black IA forums. I do remember one thing in the thread, and I believe Nept talked about this in IRC although not necessarily in the context of swappable cores, which referred to maneuverability. Not quite the way you have described it, but as a UT style dodge system. That old thread is a bit fuzzy to me but I think it was basically like a dodging OD, small amount of health loss and energy loss, but you'd dodge/OD dodge or something similar a few meters in a specific direction you choose. Not that this idea and your idea are completely the same, but it's something to think about.

I actually do like this idea for the same reason it was good in Tribes. Although if this idea were to be implemented I have a few comments. Currently OD acts differently between the Sentinel and the other two classes. I understand why this is, but having the same core do different things in different classes is a bit iffy tbh. Second these cores would need to be useful, but not required. By that I mean in Tribes you could HoF without a shield pack, you can cap without an energy pack, you can HO without an ammo pack. A role didn't necessarily require a pack to work. I've seen cappers use shield packs, repair packs, sensor jammer packs, and cloaking packs (in T2) and nothing at all quite well. As much as OD opens up routes, it also constricts some aspects of the game. So if this core idea ever came to fruition there would need to be quite a lot of thought put into it and how it would work.

Yeah, I didn't go into heavy detail on how the added maneuverability would work because I'm totally open to suggestions. Myself, I would prefer a UT style dodge system as well. Double tap causing a quick directional change. As for energy and HP loss, certainly have a dodge cost X energy, but I would want it to be low enough to allow a player to jet up, dodge a 2 - 3 times, and land safely (ie, have enough energy to prevent impact damage). HP loss, would have to be minimal if any since the point of the dodge is to avoid getting hit and losing HP. I'm not that big of a fan of penalizing people for good movement skills, but certainly not throwing out the idea that there could/should be HP loss. I would like to see the ability to dodge up/down too. How would that work? Double tap RMB for a dodge up? Double tap C for down?

The other option that isn't quite like UT would be just increase acceleration which would allow players to change direction quickly. All controls would work exactly the same, but would simply be able to move quicker.

Also, I'm curious as to how it was good in Tribes? I don't recall any dodge of any sort in Tribes... was it some mod?

OD Cores: Yes, we could still have different types of OD cores, for example, the one the heavies use for instant OD, and the ones everyone else has that require >88.

These cores I'm imagining to be specifically player movement/health enhancements. Packs such as shield packs, turrets, ammo, etc... would be additional and can be used with any core (if packs are ever implemented).

A good idea, personally Seymour's a fan of a more active dodge, say something similar to the double tap of the UT system, and I don't know how I feel about a 'dodge' core. I'd prefer a default dodge system (say a dodge maneuver that halts energy regeneration) that's available to everyone, but can also be improved on through a passive item. At the end of this post I'll paste in a dodge system to take a look at.

I too would prefer dodge being available to everyone regardless. I was simply giving the Player Core option as another way of adding it to the games if people thought it better.

The old ideas of yours look pretty good in terms of how movement would be accomplished. Of course, energy and HP expense would need to be looked into more.


Yeah, the Player Core idea is old, I remember discussion about it in the old forums, but, it revolved more around different types of OD Cores if I remember correctly.

 

[Homingun]

Wouldn't mind customizable cores, wouldn't mind them at all. But it would need a lot of play testing and tweaking.

The classes in legions are based on a classic speed vs. strength or in this case maneuverability vs. HP scenario. It depends on the player which he/she prefers, but they can't have both. Can't have the cake and eat it too.

As to the fact how the RL and GL is "splashy", I could make the same statement about the CG being "spammy". Adding dodge or dash, is going to affect all the weapons, not just the "splashy" ones. Not trying to argue, just saying.

 

[Redvan]

Wouldn't mind customizable cores, wouldn't mind them at all. But it would need a lot of play testing and tweaking.

The classes in legions are based on a classic speed vs. strength or in this case maneuverability vs. HP scenario. It depends on the player which he/she prefers, but they can't have both. Can't have the cake and eat it too.

As to the fact how the RL and GL is "splashy", I could make the same statement about the CG being "spammy". Adding dodge or dash, is going to affect all the weapons, not just the "splashy" ones. Not trying to argue, just saying.

right, more maneuverability will affect all weapons. I was simply relating it to the splash that is quite a bit more excessive than cg spam. At least with cg you actually have to hit the target, even if you are just spamming it. Splash is, obviously, more lenient. I've seen people complain about how OP the sniper is (which I disagree with), well, more maneuverability will also give these people a better ability to not get hit by it. So yes, it will affect all weapons, I was just mentioning what I was most concerned with.

As for balance, if more maneuverability were added uniformly to all classes, it wouldn't change balance much at all. If implemented in a Player Core model, then yes, balance will need to be revisited.

 

[Buhlitz]

The only problem that came to mind immediately was , since I play Outrider all of the time I feel confident in saying that if it were any more maneuverable than it already is, I'd never get hit by splash. The only thing to ever hit me would be chain.

 

[Disci]

The only problem that came to mind immediately was , since I play Outrider all of the time I feel confident in saying that if it were any more maneuverable than it already is, I'd never get hit by splash. The only thing to ever hit me would be chain.

Depends. People probably would start to learn some patterns and also this would add more choices to different kind of weapons.

 

[Shade]

The only problem that came to mind immediately was , since I play Outrider all of the time I feel confident in saying that if it were any more maneuverable than it already is, I'd never get hit by splash. The only thing to ever hit me would be chain.

I have a few weapon ideas that would work nicely with increased maneuverability. I'll make a thread later.

 

[Redvan]

Depends. People probably would start to learn some patterns and also this would add more choices to different kind of weapons.

True, and also the "dodge" would be limited. You'll have to land eventually. + a short cool down between dodges of say, 1 second, gives plenty of time for splash. 1 second is just an example, things would need to be tested to find what works best.

And ooo, shade weapons

 

[WildFire]

The only problem that came to mind immediately was , since I play Outrider all of the time I feel confident in saying that if it were any more maneuverable than it already is, I'd never get hit by splash. The only thing to ever hit me would be chain.

Indeed, I find that grenade splash barely reaches me now.

 

[Volt Cruelerz]

Dodging via a dash/dj/etc would be fine with me. I'd just say that you should also make it vertical, say someone double taps space, they do a "dash" straight upwards or double shift causes a burst downwards. In regards to chaining vs splash, true, chain would become more valid, though dodging suddenly could easily be used to put an object between yourself and your assailant, increasing your survival time. I personally would think it would be better described as a "Burst Core" rather than a "Maneuverability Core" since its really letting you burst in various directions.

Beyond that, I'd like to see other cores as well of course that give you energy regen, health regen, etc.

Perhaps a better way would be assignable category points. Let's say you have 10 for simplicity. To unlock a category, you'd need to invest, say 3 points in the installation of the core. Any upgrades beyond that would simply be increase the power of that thing. So, let's say that a default Burst/Dodge core sends you 20 meters. A second level one might send you 25. A third might be 30, and so on. Of course, certain things like energy regen would be auto-invested in so the first level would just be 1. Just rough concepts, but I think it might work. I've got a bit of a user interface in mind when I say this, so I think I'll draw it out and upload the image in a bit...

At any rate, I must say that I was once greatly opposed to the system of cores, though I must say that this system has grown on me, and I have come to look forward to a day when we might be able to do so.

EDIT: Well, here's the picture. On the left, you see a summary of the features you've selected while the middle is the actual selection panel. The bottom is simply the location general buttons and this idea comes with the ability to save loadouts to local files so you can name them whatever you want with the image's name being Velocity_Raider so you can use them later and don't have to keep messing with it every game.

Of course, upon loading the selected file, the program would have to check to make sure someone didn't tamper with it (or you could encrypt it, that works too). Alas, without further ado, here's the pic...

EDIT 2: it appears that there was a staple on the scanner... My apologies in regards to that weird staple shaped object directly above "Loadout Name:"

 

[Redvan]

EDIT 2: it appears that there was a staple on the scanner... My apologies in regards to that weird staple shaped object directly above "Loadout Name:"

That's similar to one I made for FireFall a while ago:

This one only applies to difference in maneuverability though, no shields etc...

 

[Propkid]

Maneuverability Core: If chosen, player will have increased maneuverability. This does NOT increase energy (increasing energy does as little to increase maneuverability as filling your car's gas tank to full and expecting to make quicker turns as a result). Essentially, players will be able to accelerate faster in all directions, thus, somewhat of a dodge if you will.

...

EFFECT ON SPLASH
While I've wanted an increase in maneuverability for a long time, it's the splash damage that is making me write this. So I'll start there. More maneuverability = better ability to avoid splash. If the Player Core idea were implemented, there would be plenty enough people using the other cores so that noobs wouldn't rage quit because they can't hit anything (not that that was ever a problem in the first place, but some think it is, so I'm entertaining the idea).

More maneuverability = better ability to avoid splash

How? Splash is damage dealt via an explosion on a surface eg. ground. More flight maneuverability= easier to dodge MAs but not ground-pounding... unless we are talking about a decrease in the player's mass, meaning that upjetting will be done quicker and the player will spend less time on the ground. Other than this one detail I completely like and agree with everything said so far, especially the Dash-like ideas How did I miss this thread...

Also,

Dash
By double tapping a movement key, the Legionnaire makes a quick dash in that direction. The action does not drain any energy, but it halts the regeneration of energy until after the move is completed. This movement can be used on the ground and in the air. There would also be a short delay after the movement before it can be used again. The Dash would not be armour specific and would be usable by all armour types. Also the player is unable to perform the dash while at a high velocity.

Used skillfully, it would give the player increased agility, however, if overused the player would be at a disadvantage as their energy would be slower to replenish, leaving them open to attack.

Example:
A HoF successfully defended his flag against one capper, however another capper is incoming. A quick dash, and the HoF is able to cover the flag again.

Double Jump
The Double Jump allows the Legionnaire to perform an additional jump while in mid air. The term 'Double Jump' is kinda misleading if you think of it in context with the classic double jump, meaning that the jump would need to be performed consecutively. In this version the maneuver can be made at anytime in flight, allowing additional versatility in its use.

To actually perform the maneuver when in midair, you need to let go of the 'Activate Jets' key, then hit the jump key. This would cause the Legionnaire to burst himself vertically (like a midair jump). I was thinking graphically, this move could be represented simply by a burst of energy at the Legionnaire's boots. The move will not drain energy, however, just like the Dash, it halts energy regeneration.

Examples:
The enemy capper is approaching, you're attempting to body block, realize that you do not have enough height and make a quick double jump to achieve that height BBing the capper.

You're falling and realize you're not going to make it to your base's platform due to your energy running out, the double jump gives you just enough height to safely make it to the platform.

Agility Upgrade

This passive item would increase the effectiveness of the Dash and Double Jump by removing the energy regeneration restriction. In other words, when you perform the Dash (or Double Jump), your energy still recharges normally.

Such dash-like abilities can be heavily 'abused' and can impact the game severely if all of the exploits aren't prevented. It has been done before, in the game shown in the above video. GunZ is all about these dashing abilities and using sick skills to make combinations of these exploits.

Since the idea that Seymour quoted is very similar to GunZ, but nobody has mentioned the game before I figured you guys simply don't know the game. Personally I'm scared that these dashes, double jumps and such would be exploited together with sentinel's insta-OD, frag jumps etc. to perform things similar to those in GunZ. Juuust saying....

 

[Redvan]

More maneuverability = better ability to avoid splash

How? Splash is damage dealt via an explosion on a surface eg. ground. More flight maneuverability= easier to dodge MAs but not ground-pounding... unless we are talking about a decrease in the player's mass, meaning that upjetting will be done quicker and the player will spend less time on the ground. Other than this one detail I completely like and agree with everything said so far, especially the Dash-like ideas How did I miss this thread...

whether you're on the ground or in the air, the more you can maneuver, the better you can avoid splash or MAs.

I'm a fan of the cores, just not the increase in maneuverability. The reason why Legions is so different from (and much easier than) Tribes (mostly referring to T1 and T2, not Vengeance) is because there is a greater degree of maneuverability and mobility in midair. I'm not saying we should revert to Tribes physics and decrease maneuverability, but an increase wouldn't benefit the game. Even now in its current state, the outrider can be used to dodge almost any shot in midair. Of course I find it annoying, but it's only reasonable for the outrider class to have the benefit of increased mobility in exchange for lower health. Anything more than that though would just ruin the balance and harmony of the game.

I feel like Legions gameplay (at least the skiing) is weightless and undemanding or, as Disci put it, it feels like I'm playing base LT the whole time. Maybe we could decrease the base maneuverability value a little and then, if and when cores are implemented, have the maneuverability core increase it to the game's current value?

L:O is harder than tribes. Tribes revolves around splashing the ground with spam where you know the enemy is going to land, because they have no maneuverability. While you can do that in L:O, you wont have nearly as much success because a good player isn't going to let that happen. The only reason some people think Tribes is harder is because it has more content, thus, more to consider. But even that point is debatable because some people find it easy to learn new content.

 

[Disci]

What about trying to avoid to get damaged in Tribes? I see people who are very good at this yet that's not skill right?

 

[Redvan]

What about trying to avoid to get damaged in Tribes? I see people who are very good at this yet that's not skill right?

no, that is skill, however, hitting people is much easier in tribes due to the extreme predictability.

 

[Propkid]

You're making generalizations here. When I underwent the transition from Legions to Tribes, everything was much harder.

Transitions are hard in general. Stop arguing whether Tribes is harder than L:O or not. People's nostalgia will always make them think that Tribes is harder than L:O. It might be true, might not. I didn't get to play tribes a lot, but from what I've seen on bazillions of tribes videos is that player movement is way more restricted and that the hitboxes are in fact smaller. This doesn't make the game easier or hard, however it may sound.
This might just be my opinion in here, but with L:O and Tribes you guys perceive the hardness of the game largely on the skill level of the people you play with. (as far as I see) Tribes is a very elitist environment, while L:O is trying really hard to be more newb-friendly. IMO the games are comparable in difficulty. Opinions is as far as this argument will get.

Consequently though, it'll be even harder for people to hit their enemies, especially while dueling and especially when enemies are using the outrider class. People using outriders in combination with the maneuverability core will easily avoid splash and MA's, making the game much harder for both veterans and newbloods.

GODAMNIT Outriders are easier, if not just about as easy, to take down as Raiders. Faster movement= you need to aim a bit more ahead of them in a duel to score an MA. The rockets move at some really high speed that's about 400m/s (feel free to correct me anywhere), the furthest you'll get from your enemy in a proper duel is ~80m. A rocket takes 0.2s to defeat that distance. If we assume that an Outrider has reacted instantly upon you firing a rocket at him under the above conditions he'd have those 0.2s to 'dodge'. In 0.2s I doubt that the Outrider will be able to displace his hitbox sufficiently so avoid the rocket, unless he downjets.

Yes, it will be even harder for people to hit their enemies, but it's so DAMN EASY right now, especially after the netfix. Even if the Outrider will become as imba as you say I'm 100% sure that the metagame will react and solve the problem itself by a global increase in chainwhoring.

 

[Disci]

Well. You get a bad view from vids really. It's not as hectic as Legions dueling, but it's not as slow as some of the people in here tells you it is. Todays Tribes is far more fast paced than it used to be and more unpredictable. After 10+ years people knows the maps like back of their own hand, which lets them to improvise as much as they want. Beacon stops/jumps makes direction changes/avoiding to get pounded lot easier and they are used regular basis. Some players are damn hard be shot at due these reasons. Overall speed of the game has increased tremendously compaired to old days.

I agree it's easier to get hit but that thing alone has made the game evolve to the point where speed and using terrain to cover you from shots is the only way to survive. If you're good at all above, you're pretty damn good at not getting hit. It's not Legions fast and definately not Quake fast either, but it's a different game today than most of you got used to, who played Tribes in the past.