WildFire
Warrior of Linux
And it being the same size of frostbyte would make it perhaps a small map as frostbyte is also a small map? It is not meant to be played 10v10.
Ignorance - The downfall of Legions
- Thread starter Kissyface_r0x
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And it being the same size of frostbyte would make it perhaps a small map as frostbyte is also a small map? It is not meant to be played 10v10.
Karnage
Private Tester
Whoa, this seems a little extreme if you ask me. You seem to be making huge generalizations about the community and the devs based on isolated incidents. Note that I do use the plural so I can understand that you are pissed because this sort of thing has happened on more than one occasion but I was in a series of pickups today that went really, really well and everyone was happy. We also played a variety of maps and everyone was more or less happy with that too. Also, not all the people that have admin on the private servers are devs so you have to keep that in mind as well. That said, I also think it's the responsibility of whatever admin is there to respect the rules of pickups and comply with the respective captains' map choices.
MJ1284
Member
Apcizzle
Member
1 less combo *lady friend* in pugs!
but in all sincerity, i agree kissy. I want to try stygian or elegiac or fallout more often, but i always seem to play frost whenever pickups start. The admins wouldnt change the map to the ones that i or others wanted and defaulted the map pick to frost.
That will change now. I can now start the pickups myself and as long as im starting the pug, ill let any map slide (except blade run - sorry.. it doesnt work).
but in all sincerity, i agree kissy. I want to try stygian or elegiac or fallout more often, but i always seem to play frost whenever pickups start. The admins wouldnt change the map to the ones that i or others wanted and defaulted the map pick to frost.
That will change now. I can now start the pickups myself and as long as im starting the pug, ill let any map slide (except blade run - sorry.. it doesnt work).
Application-1
test bester
BEWARE OF THE DRUNK DILDO
Kissyface_r0x
Private Tester
I just want to make it clear to everyone that my sole attempt with this thread is to try to bring the community (devs + members) together to be more experimental. With that being said, I really appreciate the positive response and that even the criticism seems to be in a constructive demeanor (as well as the excessive use of pictures to express one's opinion? guess it's just an internet thing)
As I've said to siper, I'd rather play new maps for a month even if they failed 99% of the time then play the same map every single time. But the fact is, that's not an issue. The maps WONT fail as much as believed because the game is only as good as the players who are playing, the maps effect both sides (pretty much) evenly.
You'll never move ahead by just staying content with the same routine. If we want to make this game better and more enjoyable we are going to have to be willing to try new things, knowing that they may fail but our motivation will come from the knowlege that they may also SUCCEED
^ I'm adding this to the thread.
Now on to the responses:
It has happened twice recently that I can remember. I am not going to use names because that is not my goal here, but the latest time the conversation went something like this:
"Ok Kissy first pick or map"
"Core"
"No"
"What?"
"Pick frost or zenith or I'm leaving"
The only person expressing their dismay at this choice was ucan but he's a troll anyways ;]. No one else was complaining and what's the point of giving captains the option to pick their map if captains cant actually pick their map?
I am only referring to the developers and the part of the community who act this way. I am NOT saying that ALL of the devs and the WHOLE community are like this. Also, I am aware that not all the admins are devs, but the ones who did this were and I believe that makes this issue even worse since the developers are the ones who should be setting the examples here.
As I've said to siper, I'd rather play new maps for a month even if they failed 99% of the time then play the same map every single time. But the fact is, that's not an issue. The maps WONT fail as much as believed because the game is only as good as the players who are playing, the maps effect both sides (pretty much) evenly.
You'll never move ahead by just staying content with the same routine. If we want to make this game better and more enjoyable we are going to have to be willing to try new things, knowing that they may fail but our motivation will come from the knowlege that they may also SUCCEED
^ I'm adding this to the thread.
Now on to the responses:
It has happened twice recently that I can remember. I am not going to use names because that is not my goal here, but the latest time the conversation went something like this:
"Ok Kissy first pick or map"
"Core"
"No"
"What?"
"Pick frost or zenith or I'm leaving"
The only person expressing their dismay at this choice was ucan but he's a troll anyways ;]. No one else was complaining and what's the point of giving captains the option to pick their map if captains cant actually pick their map?
I am only referring to the developers and the part of the community who act this way. I am NOT saying that ALL of the devs and the WHOLE community are like this. Also, I am aware that not all the admins are devs, but the ones who did this were and I believe that makes this issue even worse since the developers are the ones who should be setting the examples here.
Gheist
King of all Goblins
While I appreciate the lack of "name and shame" in here (more often than not, it's a bad idea to do that publically), did you talk about the specific situations (and about the specific PuG-/serveradmins involved) with the people that are responsible? Behaviour like this should not be "okay" at all, and I'm really happy that it seems to work a lot better on our side of the pond.
ripperthedipper
Member
Can i get a first letter?
I think a lot of this is situational and comes with having to read the people who are in the server. A lot of people (and captains) choose maps that I know instantly would result in garbage games based on the players in the server. Not inherently because they might be bad players, but because they simply can't play the maps due to refusal to think. And that results in taking the safe route of a map that everyone can play, ala Frostbyte.
Great, let's play Stygian even though we have 17 in TS. Let's play Core, even though only 2 people can run a non-front route. Let's play Zenith, even though based on the player composition in TS, the LO are not very good and the home Ds are top-notch. You simply know it's going to be a bad game, and I don't have much desire to spend 30 mins picking teams and starting a map, and then playing 25 mins of boring, and I think few others do as well.
Another item is that the maps will inevitably evolve (or devolve) into a certain rotation (it happened in T1, same complaints, same 3-4 maps - dx, sh, hb, rd), but that also meant that there was no worry about whether certain maps would get played, or maps within rotation would get overplayed, and they each had their characteristic strategies. Do I have any desire to play Mirage even though I've never played it in a pu? No. It's a bad map, a bad base, and I have no intention of learning any routes beyond the 4 I can do (3 of BugsPray's).
My suggestions: completely get rid of moonshine from everywhere, and mirage can have a token server where it's run.
Regular pu maps would likely be: Small numbers (5's, 6's): Nivosus, Stygian, Frostbyte, Medium numbers (7's-8's): Fb, Zen, Fall, Elegiac, Gorge, Big numbers (8 and beyond): Blade, Zen, Fall, Elegiac, Core
That covers every map except Mirage I think. Having played in Euro, US, and Asian Pugs - small numbers are way underplayed (I actually like 5v5 very much), Elegiac needs more love, and frostbyte needs to pull back a bit. The rest are getting their due I think.
It depends what the objection by the dev is - personal or communal. Just because you're captain doesn't mean you arbitrarily get to choose a map that 80% don't want to play.
Great, let's play Stygian even though we have 17 in TS. Let's play Core, even though only 2 people can run a non-front route. Let's play Zenith, even though based on the player composition in TS, the LO are not very good and the home Ds are top-notch. You simply know it's going to be a bad game, and I don't have much desire to spend 30 mins picking teams and starting a map, and then playing 25 mins of boring, and I think few others do as well.
Another item is that the maps will inevitably evolve (or devolve) into a certain rotation (it happened in T1, same complaints, same 3-4 maps - dx, sh, hb, rd), but that also meant that there was no worry about whether certain maps would get played, or maps within rotation would get overplayed, and they each had their characteristic strategies. Do I have any desire to play Mirage even though I've never played it in a pu? No. It's a bad map, a bad base, and I have no intention of learning any routes beyond the 4 I can do (3 of BugsPray's).
My suggestions: completely get rid of moonshine from everywhere, and mirage can have a token server where it's run.
Regular pu maps would likely be: Small numbers (5's, 6's): Nivosus, Stygian, Frostbyte, Medium numbers (7's-8's): Fb, Zen, Fall, Elegiac, Gorge, Big numbers (8 and beyond): Blade, Zen, Fall, Elegiac, Core
That covers every map except Mirage I think. Having played in Euro, US, and Asian Pugs - small numbers are way underplayed (I actually like 5v5 very much), Elegiac needs more love, and frostbyte needs to pull back a bit. The rest are getting their due I think.
It depends what the objection by the dev is - personal or communal. Just because you're captain doesn't mean you arbitrarily get to choose a map that 80% don't want to play.
WildFire
Warrior of Linux
While I don't fully agree with your post, I do agree with this. There needs to be limit of players for each map. Personally, I find moonshine gives off better games than nivosus, but overall, I think they should both be removed. A centralized list of maps a captain can and can't pick depending on the number of players the pickup has.
Well I don't think it should be that stringent... those are guidelines. If the players want to do Elegiac or Fallout 6v6 and I know they're competent or have played enough of those maps to know what they're doing, I'd trust them with it. On public servers I agree with Nivosus/Moonshine removal. Moonshine literally should not exist.
i like moonshine man....
GoodJobDino
Member
Idk if you read the op, kissy distinctly points out that the reason other maps should be playing is because it would be a challenge. Complacency never ends well. Challenges are what keep a community/game going and growing, that's why we compete.
WildFire
Warrior of Linux
Agreed, but some maps do have to be kept to a certain limit - mostly gorge, stygain, frost and elegiac. Pickup games really shouldn't have more than 10v10 either.
Not the older maps that might not play very well with the new gameplay changes planned.
Synista
Member
Gorge is the same size as Forgotten - which is larger than Frostbyte
Gorge is mainly side routes, Frostybyte is mainly Front or Back.
Gorge is a good 10 v 10 map, nothing to complain about. I'm pretty sure you've played quite a few Frostbyte 10 v 10's too.
IMO any map can be played up to 10 v 10 (except Nivosus and probably Elegiac). Onyl if you go beyond that 10 v 10 barrier you may find there's a problem with playing on certain maps.
Ucantry2run
Private Tester
I totally agree with you kissy. I myself will be advocating for the new and lesser played maps from now on. Although I do admit to a post that was made previously, we all have a long day and want to play a fun map on Frostbyte. But things have to change for this game to get anywhere. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.
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