WildFire
Warrior of Linux
These changes won't be pushed to live for a very long time yet, this is just a public reaction test to see how the community feels about the changes.
Big Fat Weapon Update on Public Test
- Thread starter GReaper
- Start date
- Status
These changes won't be pushed to live for a very long time yet, this is just a public reaction test to see how the community feels about the changes.
GReaper
Grumpy
We need updated models, new sounds, and a proper custom loadout system really before these changes can be pushed out, and a lot of feedback from testing these weapons.
There are simply too many loadouts from the combination of new weapons and 2 grenade types to just have a list which we define.
There are simply too many loadouts from the combination of new weapons and 2 grenade types to just have a list which we define.
Mahidhar
Member
Yes, the grenades fall very quickly, but I believe that should only happen when the player stays still while shooting them. With the Grenade Launcher, back in IA(and even with the old L:O Launcher), I used to be able to add my own forward momentum to affect the grenade distance. But now, no matter what, it seems stuck to that particular parabolic movement. I hope they restore the physics of the normal Grenade Launcher, to that of the IA one.
Not to mention, I am getting tired of trying to get used to the changes done, when they are so frequent.
They just need to put the bounce to the way it was before. Its useless right now, and come on guys lets be serious...a ma with the GL is most of the time luck as most mas are, I got a couple GL mid airs, but i can say they are luck, i did aim a bit but not that much to get rid of the lucky.
I been in situations where the bounce the way it was before, helped stop last second passes etc. I just cant explain how useful the bouncing was before
Disci
Old man
MA's are not luck. If they were I don't think so many of use would hit 20+ or even 40+ MA's per match. If you can't hit as many constantly you should stfu. You're not even near the skill level some people in here are. There might be troubles with GL but bounce isn't one of them and you should read DeadGuy's post carefully to truly understand why the changes were made. I guess you skimmed through it as so many usually does.
@Disci: this is what you're talking about?
Personally, my impression from this post is that the devs' intention is to nerf the current weapons in order to make their new weapons more/equally popular. The nerfing is needed because their new weapons just don't cut it compared to the current weapons. May I say, perhaps something is wrong with the new weapons, and not with the old ones? Making look-a-likes of old weapons is obviously going to give the result we're having now. Take the RL. It's balanced perfectly to be a great short to medium missile weapon, and there's the option to use it for the longer range aswell every now and then. Now the Bolt and Blaster are added. It's a RL with slightly different settings. What's that? It's the perfect balancing of the RL gone to waste. See why the new weapons are inferior to the old ones?
DeadGuy, you speak of a "fuller circle for weapon selection". Giving us slightly differently tweaked versions of already existing weapons is not giving us a fuller circle to pick from in my opinion. Why not explore new sorts of weapons? Say for example one that deals some damage and also drains the opponent's energy. Now that would be something new. Much easier balancing too than what you have now. People will actually have a choice between apples and pears, rather than between red or green apples.
How I see it, adding weapons like you're doing now won't bring more quality into the game, just quantity.
DeadGuy
Legions Developer
The problem with special effects for weapons is that they are very hard to balance correctly. Also, things that have short range are going to tend to favor the defense, not the offense. Right now the defense is just a huge cluster and dulls the game. I think what we need to correct that are assets that if destroyed, will be a negative to the team. That is where the offense can enter the game and really help take down the enemy, rather than dueling at their base.
Now it doesn't mean that those inventory stations you saw are 100% the answer, but something similar. Loadout generators that allow you spawn with your cores (and/or other stuff) for example, but still allows you to spawn with something if they are destroyed are an interesting idea. Things like this mean that the special effects are limited to the cores and not so much the weapons.
I think some sorts of special effects (like energy draining) are a lot easier to balance than spin-off's from existing weapons? And even if it is a bit harder, different types of gameplay is more fun than the same type all over with a little twist?
Also mainly short range on defense, I must disagree with you on that. The only time you have a chance to deal short-range damage at defense is either right at the moment when the flag gets taken, or when your base is being assaulted. When you're chasing mid-long range is the way to go. Isn't preventing a capper from returning to his base more important than having a big stand-off while some offenders try to retrieve the flag?
Edit: you didn't quite answer to the quality over quantity bit, what's your view on that?
DeadGuy
Legions Developer
Long range favors offense more than short range. You are forgetting the LO needs to clear the stand or the flag never leaves. People just surround the most important object and create a flesh wall and fire everything they have at cappers. LO have to get over there and distract in time but these days LO is extremely hard, and harder doesn't mean better. That is why the mortar is being tested and introduced, since it helps the offense clear the stands. It still is a huge defense tool though, which is why assets would pull it (and other tactics) into more uses.
Chasing in legions is not anywhere near short or medium range, it's long range. Maybe in public games people llama often, are pretty slow and you can enjoy shooting them down for the most part. Anyone with a route though will keep a large lead ahead of you and requires long range weapons to deal with. The best weapon for chasing is the chaingun because it is very effective at range. Unfortunately, the chaingun is also one of the most powerful weapons in the game because if you are effective at range, you can often be even more effective at short. The long range vs short range balances are something we keep in mind, and tried to design these new weapons accordingly.
Energy drain would be another large buff to the defense and is very unfun to play against. People have always raged when you mess with their movement, especially since that is the main theme of this game.
The quantity over quality is in part a matter of opinion. The weapons all have differences in velocity, spash, damage and rate of fire. Your complaint is that only these 4 aspects are being changed and nothing else introduced. While this is true for now, we are planning one or two things that might bring something else, but it is difficult to balance. The assets and cores I think is where you will see some of the "freshness" you are looking for.
Chasing in legions is not anywhere near short or medium range, it's long range. Maybe in public games people llama often, are pretty slow and you can enjoy shooting them down for the most part. Anyone with a route though will keep a large lead ahead of you and requires long range weapons to deal with. The best weapon for chasing is the chaingun because it is very effective at range. Unfortunately, the chaingun is also one of the most powerful weapons in the game because if you are effective at range, you can often be even more effective at short. The long range vs short range balances are something we keep in mind, and tried to design these new weapons accordingly.
Energy drain would be another large buff to the defense and is very unfun to play against. People have always raged when you mess with their movement, especially since that is the main theme of this game.
The quantity over quality is in part a matter of opinion. The weapons all have differences in velocity, spash, damage and rate of fire. Your complaint is that only these 4 aspects are being changed and nothing else introduced. While this is true for now, we are planning one or two things that might bring something else, but it is difficult to balance. The assets and cores I think is where you will see some of the "freshness" you are looking for.
Now this does align a little with "where tactics fail, we bring in a new gun to solve it". It's a reason why I don't quite like the Mortar anyway. The gun feels to be made for empowering a solo offender or defender, not one working in a team. It's a matter of opinion probably, but it's how I see it.
I have not and wouldn't dare saying anything opposing what you said here.
The sniper rifle drains energy. Yet it's implemented in the game in a way people seem to like it. An energy draining weapon could have that potential aswell.
Can't wait!
Mahidhar
Member
Are you talking about the combo people did when they land both the Hand Grenade and grenade(Grenade Launcher) on the ground, on the same time? If so Deadguy, this isn't really fair. You say that the ground pounding with Hand Grenade + grenade is overpowered, yet you forget that, that problem arose from the time, the Hand Grenades were released.
Personally, I rarely(if ever) use the Hand Grenades, and this method of solving balance issues of the game(i.e. to nerf the vanilla weapons, so the new weapons can grab some of the spotlight), just doesn't make sense to me.
Still, I have one request/suggestion. If you believe that there is no other way to balance this issue(which was originally caused by the Hand Grenade implementation), please give one load-out which has the original Grenade Launcher + Rocket Launcher + Chaingun(on Raider, you may remove RL/CG on Outrider), and does not carry the Hand Grenades completely, but gives a little bit more ammo(24), to the Grenade Launcher. Thanks.
ExtremeKiwi
New Member
curses no comments on my comment
- yes I am that beef headed
- yes I am that beef headed
DeadGuy
Legions Developer
Not at all, I was referring to the huge difference in the grenade damage and splash compared to the rocket. The amount of distance you had to have between you are your target was very small and the grenade hardly arched at all. You used it exactly as a rocket in most cases because a lob shot was so slow your target would dodge away most of the time. The changes put the two grenades at two different styles, and even though both can technically be used to close up ground pound or for short-medium distances attacks, they both have their specialties.
FYI the damage nerf on the normal grenade is only by 5 and for MAs only. That was done simply because MAs are easier with a faster projectile at a higher rate of fire. The cluster ground pound was nerfed because of what we are discussing currently.
Wait, are you talking about a weapon that drains your energy when you use it, or the enemy? If you mean it drains your energy that might be entirely possible, but it would need to be very effective since any energy drain immediately puts you at a disadvantage in a fight and has a good chance to devolve into the 'pro' gun.
I'm not sure how you used the GL, but I never used it similarly to the RL. Its arch is very noticable without the latest update.
One that drains your opponents energy. But this isn't the right thread to discuss a new weapon. Maybe I'll post a better thought through idea in the suggestions section.
Fixious
Test Lead
Lin
Member
All i got out of this was you telling him to stfu because he can't hit 20+ gl ma's in a match, stating that bounce is not a problem without support, holding up deadguy's post without bothering to explain your interpretation, and assuming that hellz didn't properly read it.
I thought Hellz's position was that the new bouncing on the gl makes it functionally useless as a close range ground pound weapon, forcing users to rely on ma's when they can't create distance.
I fail to see how you responded to any part of that.
Mahidhar
Member
Oh the splash damage, still doesn't make sense. It's a grenade, for god's sake. It's meant to have higher splash and damage, compared to the Rocket Launcher. "The grenade hardly arched at all" when it was used to MA(that too, under 50m), not while ground pounding. Trust me, when I say that you don't place your reticule right on the target and be able to land a rocket-similar shot, with the Grenade Launcher. It would either bounce or explode in front of the target, never right on him. The reason? Because if you look down at him, the grenade path distance, is tremendously decreased, which will most probably not be the required explosion distance. If not(meaning, you're at a considerable height), the grenade would miss him, and fall closer, to below your feet.
Angle always played a role in this. Heck, I don't look up and shoot with the Grenade Launcher, just because it has the property of dropping down after some distance, but also used it to reduce the amount of height I need to gain, in order to make the grenade explode(increasing the angle a bit, also increased the distance of travel of the projectile). Every bump on the ground, every cement structure at a certain height required close watch, as it is figured where the enemy will land, and then, according to that, the player again(in a Milli-second) will have to adjust the angle, height and distance from the target, to provide explosion-required grenade air-time. All these small complexities are non-existent in the working of the Rocket Launcher. In other words, you just point and click.
Also, I disagree with your statement "both can technically be used to close up ground pound or for short-medium distances attacks". Try ground pounding someone(preferably, an Outrider), on the Towers-connecting-bridge on the Alpha side(?) of FrostByte, with the normal GL.
In any case, from reading your post, I get the feeling that you will not revert the weapon back to it's previous self, as you feel it is now perfect. Well, I guess that's about it for me then, had fun.
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