The Great Map Debate Thread

[MJ1284]

Seeing that many people like to comment on separate maps on separate threads, I though we could sum them all up in one thread and see what pros and cons you come up with.

I'm sure everyone knows what maps we have/have had so far, here's brief list for reference: Nivosus, Moonshine, Gorge, The Core, Quarry, Blade Run, Stygian, Sleepwalker, Frostbyte, Mirage, Forgotten, Zenith Cauldron, Elegiac and Fallout (slap me if I forgot to mention some maps).

Here's my observations on Legions maps:

Nivosus
What I like:
- It's short and sweet, well suited for small amount of players
- Easy to learn, good map for beginners
- You can play any role and do well, no role is particularly dominant...

What I dislike:
- .. Except Senti cappers due to short distance between bases
- Llamaing is too easy & effective as well (though not as bad as Moonshine, still annoying though)
- Front OD routes too spammable & OD + flag toss to base D is easy with little effort
- Gets cramped real quick if there's more than 10+ players

What I'd change:
-I'd either enlarge map or change base design (lower flag stands) to make llamaing & Senti capping less appealing

Moonshine:
What I like:
- Offers more variety on capping routes than Nivosus, Front OD is harder to pull off/leaves capper more vourneable to defenders fire
- Another good beginner map due to size and good for learning skiing

What I dislike:
- Senti cappers are still OPed
- Llamaing is even easier thanks to those little ramps on front of bases
- Back capping is lame. Always

What I'd change:
- Again, lower bases/flag stands to discourage llamaing & Senti capping
- Remove those two base ramps entirely, possibly flatten back hills too

Gorge:
What I like:
- Base design looks really spiffy, really stands out from rest
- Great variety of routes, you can approach flag stand from virtually any direction
- Map size is pretty optimal, you have enough time to go chasing even after respawning (unlike Nivosus/Moonshine, llama will be halfway home by the time you get to respawn)

What I dislike:
- Camping on top of hills after grabbing flag, allowing capper to regain all health in relatively safe spot
- Base design seems to favor defense tad too much

What I'd change:
- I'm not sure, it seems pretty solid as it is... maybe I'm just missing something here? Possibly demolish hills on back of bases?

The Core:
What I like:
- Unique color scheme, looks original compared to most other maps (albeit little too dark).
- I like the idea of having lake of lava in middle of map, it could be utilized on other maps too
- Base design looks quite interesting, would like to see flag stands positioned similarly on other maps (hanging on separate platform)

What I dislike:
- Finding good cap routes is bothersome, hench 8/10 cappers will just Front OD.. it gets old real quick
- Easy to rabbit

What I'd change:
- I'd make cap routes little more obvious to encourage people to try something else than Front OD.
- I'd like to see more lava around the base (maybe on bowls below flag stand?) to spice things up. It probably won't work but I'd still like to see it in action

Quarry:
What I liked:
-It had pretty lights

What I disliked:
- Everything else

What I'd change:
- Nothing. I'm glad they got rid of it

Blade Run:
What I like:
- Good terrain here and there, lots of options for cap & return routes
- Base design is good, flag stand is relatively low so llamaing is hard/ineffective
- Base trampolins make it easier for chasers to catch up fast cappers

What I dislike:
- Too much flat terrain and too many high hills, making it rabbit's paradise. Try chasing rabbit single handedly on this map and convince me that's fun
- Probably tad too large map, would work better if they reduced map size

What I'd change:
- Flag stands & bases are well placed but hills surrounding OOB grids will have to go
- Add few bumps and hills on midfield

Stygian:
What I like:
- It has DangerousCrossing vibes thanks to base design
- Definitely stands out from rest of small maps

What I dislike:
- Far too many hills, great for dueling but not so much for CTF
- Map design suffers from same syndrome as Nivosus/Moonshine, it's far too easy to llama
- Llamaing is further encouraged by the fact that it's faster than most sideroutes. This should NOT happen

What I'd change:
- Flatten terrain here and there and lower flag stand
- I really like DX vibes, hench I'd want to try to encourage people look for sideroutes

Sleepwalker:
I haven't played Sleepwalker much, far as I know it has changed a bit since first version. Maybe someone else can give feedback on this map?

[CONTINUE]

 

[MJ1284]

Frostbyte:
What I like:

- Great variety of routes, including some sneakier routes as well making both defending AND capping interesting. Most of my fav routes are on Frostbyte because of this
- Base design is balanced in both defense & offense perspective, you can gain high ground relatively easy but they can also prove to make blind spots to enemy defense if defenders are poorly positioned (which encourages teamplay defense as well)
- Map size is pretty optimal IMO, not too small to feel cramped but not too large to make rabbiting totally unfair
- Flag stands are positioned in such manner you can't llama too easily

What I dislike:
- Beta base has bridge between towers whereas Alpha does not (or was it vice versa?), I've always wondered why?
- Half pipe left from Alpha base occasionally lures rabbits and duelers but otherwise it's rarely used. Not a big deal but it's still lightly populated compared to other ares of the map
- Front OD is less common than on Nivosus/Moonshine, but it's still there

What I'd change:
- Not much to change TBH, most community agrees that Frostbyte is one of the better maps. Perhaps there could be alternative version of this map where bases are relocated to keep it interesting but besides that it seems pretty perfect


Mirage:
What I like:
- I like the color palette, night time desert looks sweet.
- Midfield underground tunnel segment is nice idea (albeit entirely useless)
- Bases and map design are both good but...

What I dislike:
- ... map feels too big
- Those huge alcove railings on bases make perfect spots to camp = bad

What I'd change:
- Map could definitely use some revisioning, it has good potential though
- I'd like to expand whole underground segment of the map, maybe by entire pathway that leads to enemy base + potential to do OD caproutes when emerging from underground (kinda like in Gorge). By pathway I don't mean shallow sewer that can be blocked by single Sentinel, I mean a wide open area running underground


Forgotten:
What I like:
- Base design looks neat, lots of small gaps for cappers to sqeeze through and defense has to do little more than just camp on one spot...

What I dislike:
-... that is, if the map wasn't ruined by that HUGE FRIKEN GRAND CANYON

What I'd change:
- Remove canyon entirely, 9/10 people can't arse to use sideroutes when they can just Front OD to straight canyon


Zenith Cauldron:
What I like:
- Lots of open space & caproutes to keep base D on their toes, HoF is nearly a must against good cappers

- While towers provide higher ground, they're still a blind spot for HoF's
- Most hills are well placed around the map, there's not that many flat spots on the map -> good large map for beginners since it's easy to maintain speed
- Flag stand is positioned relatively low ground, making llamaing less effective than on Nivosus/Moonshine. It's possible, but rarely worthwhile.

What I dislike:
- Easy to rabbit, but I suppose that plagues every Large Maps with high hills
- Sometimes it feels impossible to defend against cappers without HoF's, bases feel bit empty

What I'd change:
- I'd add some scenery/objects to bases, currently they feel too empty. Other than that Zenith is quite enjoyable map.

Elegiac:
What I like:
- Lots of open space and hilly ground, relatively easy to build up momentum but routes still require good planning + lots of variety with routes
- Base design reminds me of Hildebrand in a good way, this map encourages players to favor sideroutes instead of Front OD's.
- Every role has it's upsides on this map, snipers have good view on incoming cappers and HoF isn't completely mandatory for base D.

What I dislike:
- I see no reason for those towers behind bases, all they do is offer safe spot for cappers to regain health & iniate cap route or heal up safely before heading toward own home base = Lame
- On top of that towers are high above, it's far too easy to build momentum after healing to 100% = Very Lame
- Those small sewer holes on bases provide turtling spot for Sentinels, you can hold the flag infinite time if you've got two Sentinels camping in cramped space = Uber Lame.

What I'd change:
- I'd say get rid of towers and those little sewer holes. I know some diehard Raindance fans will likely want to retain those little bases below flag stands and I think they're fine, but let's face it: Sentinel in cramped room & Mortar = OPed. Otherwise Elegiac is exellent map.


Fallout:
What I like:
- Map layout looks great, lots of open ground and hills to build up cap routes. Furthermore, llamaing is REALLY discouraged despite flag stand being well above ground.
- Pyramid base layout looks good and works surprisingly well IMO. While it's challenging to hit flag stand from certain angles, it can be very rewarding as they can get near flag stand unseen thanks to hills and bases.
- Chasers have decent chance to intercept cappers even if they'd have to respawn before chasing.

What I dislike:

- Small flag stand also means that most defense will pile on small platform. Not only does it make it hard to defend base without hitting teammates it's also very risky as single mortar can send whole defense into respawn.
- While I like the idea of having "elevator shaft" that leads upstairs & downstairs it feels quite useless at the moment.

What I'd change:
- Having flag stand on separate round platform would make it little easier to defend without risking too much FF while still making stand clearing effective tactic (as in The Core). I'd also like to see elevator shaft put to better use, maybe it would work in conjunction with hatches seen on Nivosus/Moonshine bases?


Feel free to comment, critisize or make your own suggestions!

 

[Dacil]

woah...too long for me...i'll just....make my way over to .... somewhere else <_<

 

[MJ1284]

For the record, you don't have to analyze EACH map if you don't feel like it. I'm just curious to know if anyone out here agrees with my observations or do they have different opinions
Just pick a map, analyze it and how would you change it (if you wanted to change it).

 

[WildFire]

I don't see how lowering flag stands on both Nivosus or Moonshine would help with stopping llamaing, wouldn't it just increase it because the flag is easier to get to?

 

[Strife]

I imagine it would make it harder for llamas to gain speed and while that's not going to completely deter llamaing, it'd make it a lot less viable.

 

[Armageddon]

Agreed except for quarry, i enjoyed it but it really needs alot of work to become a good map that doesn't make players drop like Stygian.
I think every game needs a dark map and elekyak was it until they nerfed my skybox..

 

[MJ1284]

I don't see how lowering flag stands on both Nivosus or Moonshine would help with stopping llamaing, wouldn't it just increase it because the flag is easier to get to?

I may have phrased "llamaing" poorly, let me try to be more specific:
The actual llama grabbing would be easier, true, but that's not the issue with llamaing. As Strife pointed out, it's more important how quickly you can build up your speed RIGHT AFTER llamaing.
If you couldn't go from 0 to 100 in 3 secs on Nivo/Moon, wouldn't that make llamaing less appealing?

 

[Abandoned]

I may have phrased "llamaing" poorly, let me try to be more specific:
The actual llama grabbing would be easier, true, but that's not the issue with llamaing. As Strife pointed out, it's more important how quickly you can build up your speed RIGHT AFTER llamaing.
If you couldn't go from 0 to 100 in 3 secs on Nivo/Moon, wouldn't that make llamaing less appealing?

Also you can RJ outta there...

 

[Immanent]

Also you can RJ outta there...

And get your ass sniped.

 

[Abandoned]

And get your ass sniped.

No thanks.

 

[RiPTaCk]

There is no point in changing all the old maps.

1. Create new maps.
2. Test them in Private/Public servers.
3. If they fail --> Trash
4. If they are decent and have potential -->Modify and go back to 2.
5. If they rock. Voilà!

There is no point in keeping an extremely unpopular map in the map rotation.

 

[WildFire]

I may have phrased "llamaing" poorly, let me try to be more specific:
The actual llama grabbing would be easier, true, but that's not the issue with llamaing. As Strife pointed out, it's more important how quickly you can build up your speed RIGHT AFTER llamaing.
If you couldn't go from 0 to 100 in 3 secs on Nivo/Moon, wouldn't that make llamaing less appealing?

Ah, I see now. But lowering said flag stand will actually also impede good players from leaving the base fast and slow down the game on that map. Perhaps the solution is to make slopes more discreet.

 

[Propkid]

Nivosus
What I like:
- Good old classic base design, fair for both O and D.

What I dislike:
- Constant frontcaps, few side routes make capping on this map sickly boring.
- Alpha > Beta (in frontcaps)
- The map is... boring. Both in design and in skiing on.

What I'd change:
- Sides of the map to provide more caproutes.
- Add more depth?

Moonshine:
All Good :]

Gorge:
All Good :]

The Core:
All Good (especially side routes, there's plenty)

Quarry:
What I liked:
- Base design
- Balance between front and side caps

What I disliked:
- Side hills too high

What I'd change:
- I'd bring it back?

Blade Run:
All good (sorta, I want Arena played on this)

Stygian:
What I like:
- Makes cappers use their heads
- Makes defence use their heads in preventing llamas (don't listen to MJ)

What I dislike:
- Some map details hardly ever used/ attended.

What I'd change:
- Flatten extreme sides for possible return routes
- Make the hill behind bases either steeper or shorter.

Frostbyte:
All good but
What I'd change:
- The left-behind of Alpha.

Mirage:
All good :]

Forgotten:
What I like:
- Brainless front routes fail.
- Awesome design.

What I'd change:
- Make side returns easier. Side caps really take long on this map.

Zenith Cauldron:
All good :]

Elegiac:
All good :]

Fallout:
What I like:
- The secret Legions appreciation room ;D (All good)

-llama whine-

Last time I checked the llamaing team was losing if the other team had any decent D. Also last time I checked every team with paraelisa was losing .