Chi-Ro
Private Tester
LO could probably use a small boost, but I don't really care that much atm myself.
Personally, I believe if you want to make something easier you should start with the game as a whole itself. Bad skill curve is bad...
Newbloods, skill curves, and so forth
- Thread starter Chi-Ro
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LO could probably use a small boost, but I don't really care that much atm myself.
Personally, I believe if you want to make something easier you should start with the game as a whole itself. Bad skill curve is bad...
Daphinicus
Private Tester
Nod.
WildFire
Warrior of Linux
Yes, I agree totally with this post.
Floks
Member
Making the game easier removes the element of skill. If every player is at the skill cap, then what is the point in playing. The top teams will be virtually identical in "skill." This means that there really wouldn't be any competition. I find it hard to believe you can make this game much easier than it already is, without turning it into something people will hate.
Daphinicus
Private Tester
Chi-Ro was talking, specifically, about the skill curve -- the time and effort it takes to go from immobile newblood to MAing, routing assassin. The need for a gentler skill curve has been mentioned numerous times on this forum. Making the game easier to get into doesn't equate to making the game easier to play, nor would anyone in the community, devs included, want to make the game a piece of cake -- that would involve changing a lot of the components that we love about Legions in the first place.
Floks
Member
Easier skill curve, as you've just described it, would therefore mean it takes less time/is easier to reach the skill cap. Now if I can refer you to my previous post:
The way I see it, most of the players who get discouraged, and quit, are probably looking for a game like COD. In COD you can jump right in and start getting frags, because COD takes very little skill to play. I think that people should realize that this isn't a game you can just pick up and play. Maybe tutorials would help, and I know there are some out there, but blaming the game is not the answer in my opinion.
The way I see it, most of the players who get discouraged, and quit, are probably looking for a game like COD. In COD you can jump right in and start getting frags, because COD takes very little skill to play. I think that people should realize that this isn't a game you can just pick up and play. Maybe tutorials would help, and I know there are some out there, but blaming the game is not the answer in my opinion.
Daphinicus
Private Tester
You're right; this isn't COD. It is, however, in the community's best interest to reduce the skill curve; if we don't, you guys will be playing yourselves over and over and over, get bored to tears, and either quit, or mod the game to hell in an attempt to make it fresh again.
Games stay successful in the long run because they appeal to as wide an audience as is possible for that kind of game. We're not going to change FPS+Z gameplay, but we ARE going to have to focus on tutorials once it comes time to market Legions. Videos and text will only go so far; eventually, the only way to teach the game to new players quickly enough to keep them interested (and the longer they're interested, the longer they'll stay, the better they'll get, and the more people you'll have to play against) is in-game tutorials with voiceovers, waypoints/gates to ski through, etc.
Why can people just pick up and play COD? Because COD, like every other major AAA title out there, has learned a vital lesson: You need to teach your game to your players. We understand this lesson intellectually, but we haven't really learned it. And the longer we refuse to act, the thinner our chances are of growing the community.
Floks
Member
First paragraph: We are already bored to tears, and playing each other over and over. I think reducing the skill curve would just make it even more miserable for everyone.
Second paragraph: What point are you trying to make here? All I got out of that was tutorials, we need tutorials! In game and out apparently. I'm all for tutorials, tutorials don't reduce the skill curve. In fact they have nothing to do with changing the skill curve.
Third paragraph: What do you need to be taught in order to play COD? My point was that, unlike Legions, you don't have to learn anything to play COD, that's why people like it. I assume all you're trying to say here is that we need tutorials? Which is redundant, and does not have anything to do with the skill curve. Add tutorials, don't make the game easier.
SeymourGore
Flatulent Cherub
I don't believe Daphini or Chi-Ro are talking about making the game easier or simplified, but more about easing players into Legions: Overdrive's style of gameplay. Tutorials would be one method, but Seymour also believes there's other areas of improvement to make the game more appealing without 'lowering the skill cap' or what have you.
Be it, more assets (creating more roles players can fill, say, a player who may not be that interested in the combat aspect of the game, but enjoys playing a support role, ie: repairing assets, players, etc), tutorials, casual 'training' servers, etc. There's probably a few more that I could mention, but Seymour's gotta clean this house because Mother is visiting him today.
I just wanted to make it clear that there's no intention of 'simplifying' Legions for the masses, Seymour wouldn't be interested in it for long if that was the case, but I do believe Legions: Overdrive can be made to have a broader, more accessible appeal without dumbing down the gameplay.
I hinted at hand grenades being a 'small piece to a larger puzzle', and this is still the case. So, while it's great to get feedback for balancing issues with Legions in its current form, it's also a good idea to keep in mind that new content might address these issues, and I don't want to see everyone get too caught up with balance concerns. I feel one of the most aggravating issues with FE:L development was the apparent focus on balancing smaller issues, when Seymour just wanted to see the content released.
Anyhow, shame on you for taking Seymour away from his cleaning duties, Mother can be ornery about cleanliness.
Be it, more assets (creating more roles players can fill, say, a player who may not be that interested in the combat aspect of the game, but enjoys playing a support role, ie: repairing assets, players, etc), tutorials, casual 'training' servers, etc. There's probably a few more that I could mention, but Seymour's gotta clean this house because Mother is visiting him today.
I just wanted to make it clear that there's no intention of 'simplifying' Legions for the masses, Seymour wouldn't be interested in it for long if that was the case, but I do believe Legions: Overdrive can be made to have a broader, more accessible appeal without dumbing down the gameplay.
I hinted at hand grenades being a 'small piece to a larger puzzle', and this is still the case. So, while it's great to get feedback for balancing issues with Legions in its current form, it's also a good idea to keep in mind that new content might address these issues, and I don't want to see everyone get too caught up with balance concerns. I feel one of the most aggravating issues with FE:L development was the apparent focus on balancing smaller issues, when Seymour just wanted to see the content released.
Anyhow, shame on you for taking Seymour away from his cleaning duties, Mother can be ornery about cleanliness.
Daphinicus
Private Tester
You've already learned the game, you're already over the curve; a reduced skill curve wouldn't apply to you anyway. You're playing each other over and over because new blood isn't coming into the game, and those that DO come, for the most part, get scared off.
Also, if you're bored to tears, quit and go play something else, and come back once the game's out of beta.
I used the term "skill curve" because that's the phrase that was originally used, but I meant "learning curve," and yes, tutorials DO help the learning curve. Sorry for not being clear at first; when I bang out replies, sometimes what I mean gets lost.
Tutorials aren't the only things that can help learning curves; you could also have things like loading screen tips ("Llamaing the flag means grabbing it at low speed, and is generally discouraged. Try picking up speed on your way to the enemy base so you can get in and get out in a flash!"), in-game text hints ("You're low on health! Pass the flag to a teammate by pressing Q!"), and class descriptions on a loadout screen ("Sentinels are brutish warriors that move slow, but can take plenty of damage to compensate. They can instantly enter Overdrive for short bursts whenever they like, which can be useful for knocking incoming cappers out of the way.").
YOU don't need to be taught anything to play COD, because you're a hardcore gamer -- for the most part, all of us here are. COD didn't sell the millions of copies it sold to hardcore gamers; it sold to gamers of all kinds, including fairly casual players that might not have been entirely comfortable with shooters. The reason any triple-A title retains those players is because it teaches them the game.
If you notice, few games have tutorial levels anymore; they introduce gameplay concepts slowly in Single Player, showing each weapon to the player in turn and gradually requiring more and more advanced skills to get through levels. We don't have SP, so we don't have that luxury, but the requirement still exists -- we have to introduce concepts to players slowly, without letting them get bored.
What does this mean for gameplay? It means you need to be able to be moderately effective while still only learning the game. It means you need to be able to contribute to your team in some way, even if you're still figuring out how to ski and aren't all that great with routes. That doesn't mean it has to be easy for every single player to be a master capper; it just means there have to be easy things new players can do to help their team out. Deployable turrets, for instance, are a way for players to get kills without needing good aim; it taps into a different, strategic skillset that suits some players better (and is one of the reasons I really hope we implement deployable turrets in the future). Splash weapons allow players to at least injure cappers as they grab a flag, making it easier for experienced chainwhores to chase and get the return.
Grenades are advanced weaponry that can pack a hell of a punch when used in combos. But most new players can't perform combos. That's another reason having splash on the grenades makes sense: it gives new players another opportunity to at least do SOME damage to enemies, even if it's not a whole lot.
It's easy for us to get annoyed at newblood splashiness, because we see it as an inconvenience. I would argue that it's supposed to be an inconvenience. At least they're able to impact the game!
[Edit: Booya, Seymour!]
Floks
Member
Seymour, it would seem as though Chi-Ro and Daph have different ideas. I still want to emphasize that making the game easier to get into has nothing to do with changing the game, it has to do with giving players the resources to get better. In other words tutorials. Chi-Ro, and it would seem Daph, has expressed the opinion that the game should be changed so that it is easier for players who are just starting out. If you can find a way to do that without making the overall skill level of the game go down, I'll be very impressed.
Floks
Member
So what you're saying, is that we need tutorials? I agree. Why don't we all start working on some tutorials, instead of changing the game?
Edit: Or single player campaign.
Edit: To sum up my feelings on this whole conversation:
It worries me when I see a developer talking about adding content in the context of making the "skill curve" easier. Adding a skill-less asset such as a turret, and justifying it by saying that new players can be more effective, is not what I like to hear. A turret does not make a new player better. It is a crutch. When you talk about adding content, you should be thinking about how to make the player better, not the game easier. For example, a simple dodge mechanic would allow players to avoid a shot. This is in comparison to a deployable turret that shoots your enemies for you and gives you free kills. I'm not against new content, I'm against the idea of making the game easier. I think new content and tutorials are important.
Daphinicus
Private Tester
Changing the game is good. We're always working to change the game, for the better. For instance, we just added grenades. We're working on new maps. We're going to add base assets. We're going to introduce new weapons. These are all changes. And they are all good.
What we AREN'T going to do is decide that every weapon should be a one-hit kill with uber splash radius just so newbloods can get kills. We aren't doing to create a class that's impervious to damage that's only available to new players, just so they can get caps. Contrary to popular belief, no one on the dev team's a moron.*
But tutorials only go so far. At some point in time, we need to figure out a way to actually teach new players how to do everything in this game. I can show someone who's never played WoW before how to move in the game, click the buttons, and follow my tanking rotation, but if someone pulls aggro the dude's gonna be in the weeds. He needs 85 levels of playtime with that class to get comfortable enough with all of its ins and outs to be a standout tank. Otherwise it'll either take him a VERY long time to get good (let's face it, most of us have years of FPS+Z gameplay under our belts), or he'll just get annoyed and quit.
And no, it's not a good thing when a player plays Legions, gets annoyed because it's too hard, and quits. We can't afford to have prospective players quit. The community's teeny enough as it is.
I'll be honest, nobody knows how to fix this problem. We have guesses, we have hopes, we have conjecture, but we don't know. We aren't going to ruin the game just so newbloods can play, that's for damned sure! But we DO know that something needs to be done, even if we don't know what. So instead of railing against the possibility of changes that might help newbloods out (and no, tutorials aren't enough, even though they're CRITICAL and really need to be made, hence my support of them earlier), how about some ideas? We could sure use 'em.
* Except me.
Daphinicus
Private Tester
Before I say anything else, let me say this: I am not the Legions gameplay designer. That's DeadGuy. I give my thoughts, and the examples I use (like deployable turrets, which I should point out are not under development or even something we have implementation plans for) are designed to provide support for said thoughts. If I'm adamant, it's because I strongly believe in the need to support new players; not because I'm trying to get across that we're going in some specific direction.
That said, I love deployable turrets, because I enjoy the fact that farming uses a very different type of skillset (strategic thinking, placement, trap design, etc.), while still being contributory to the game. I also just find them fun, and fun is good. But I don't think deployable turrets are skill-less assets; I believe they simply require different skills to use. Obviously, deploying turrets ain't going to make you any better at skiing, or MAing, or anything else in the game. But if it lets you be an asset to the team and have fun doing it? Bring it on. They'd be a piece of cake to destroy anyways, and would need all sorts of restrictions put on them to keep them balanced.
Oh, and I love the idea of a dodge mechanic; always have. It fits perfectly with Legions gameplay, and would be a blast to employ in-game.
Buhlitz
Member
See madden IQ tests to get an idea of my ideas.
The goal would be to organize a series of tests, or practice drills, that a player could do that are DIRECTLY applicable to how they play the game. This game, to me, has always been about repetition.
a few ideas :
drill 1 : capping
Have a specifically designed couple of hills, a flag to grab and a place to cap it. 10 seconds gold 14 seconds silver 18 seconds bronze. 19 seconds try again.
drill 2 : body blocking
Have a trigger drop a player model down a chute and onto a jump pad that launches them right at a flag that you are standing in front of. If the player model gets shot through the flag there will be a sort of 'goal' behind it that will cap the flag and kill the model. Stop all of them in 60 seconds gold, stop half silver, stop less than half bronze, stop less than 1/4 try again.
Drill2 : Chasing/MA/Chain
Both you and a player model get dropped down chutes parallel to each other and launched off jump pads into the air, you are slightly behind the model which has a flag in hand, you are coming at him from 5 o clock and are given enough float time to launch a few MA attempts, or enough time to chain.
You are scored off MA's, Mid air Flag Returns, etc.
If you can effectively create a drill for each and every aspect of legions that is somehow intuitive, fun, and repeatable then it will help players of any background develop skills applicable to a legions pub/pug.
and instead of AI opponents, or jerry rigged version of a player model and a jump pad you could also have it be player vs player drills and training.
The goal would be to organize a series of tests, or practice drills, that a player could do that are DIRECTLY applicable to how they play the game. This game, to me, has always been about repetition.
a few ideas :
drill 1 : capping
Have a specifically designed couple of hills, a flag to grab and a place to cap it. 10 seconds gold 14 seconds silver 18 seconds bronze. 19 seconds try again.
drill 2 : body blocking
Have a trigger drop a player model down a chute and onto a jump pad that launches them right at a flag that you are standing in front of. If the player model gets shot through the flag there will be a sort of 'goal' behind it that will cap the flag and kill the model. Stop all of them in 60 seconds gold, stop half silver, stop less than half bronze, stop less than 1/4 try again.
Drill2 : Chasing/MA/Chain
Both you and a player model get dropped down chutes parallel to each other and launched off jump pads into the air, you are slightly behind the model which has a flag in hand, you are coming at him from 5 o clock and are given enough float time to launch a few MA attempts, or enough time to chain.
You are scored off MA's, Mid air Flag Returns, etc.
If you can effectively create a drill for each and every aspect of legions that is somehow intuitive, fun, and repeatable then it will help players of any background develop skills applicable to a legions pub/pug.
and instead of AI opponents, or jerry rigged version of a player model and a jump pad you could also have it be player vs player drills and training.
Ucantry2run
Private Tester
I actually like the idea of lowering the skill curve. We need more good players.
It saddens me to snipe Unknown and Pop when they come in, they're two of the best cappers. ):
It saddens me to snipe Unknown and Pop when they come in, they're two of the best cappers. ):
Buhlitz
Member
Disagree. Solve the problem not the symptom.
Ucantry2run
Private Tester
Okay, I'll go to each newblood and medium-skilled player and scream, "PLAY LEGIONS MORE!"
A learning curve is how long/difficult it is to understand the game. It can be reduced through tutorials and whatnot. A skill gap is the gap between good and bad players. It should not be reduced (I want it to be increased, actually). Can someone please define skill curve?
ctf isn't fun to new players, maybe even boring. New players can't ski, that means they can't cap or chase. Pretty much all they can do is llama and duel. It's not fun waiting around a base for people to shoot at, nor is it fun waddling over to the enemy base, only to be outnumbered. Why not throw them into a new player only DM, where they can have fun mindlessly shooting at one another?
ctf isn't fun to new players, maybe even boring. New players can't ski, that means they can't cap or chase. Pretty much all they can do is llama and duel. It's not fun waiting around a base for people to shoot at, nor is it fun waddling over to the enemy base, only to be outnumbered. Why not throw them into a new player only DM, where they can have fun mindlessly shooting at one another?
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