Drugs and Alchohol

[Allahrules2]

You can't weight out problems which would be there due the banning of something that has been among the people for so long. It all should come from own choices people makes, not from goverments telling people what not to do and then ban them altogether. You can see these examples and how they have worked out in the past if you would stop and think with your own brains and find information by yourself, not by what you've heard from who ever wants you to belive this way.

So we are going to let people choose to take the chance of hurting someone else or not? Why are we letting people choose to hurt one another? If it were banned there it would be much harder to get which would mean less people using it. Just because we can't erase it completely doesn't mean we can't try to keep people from using it. Simply because there is some way to get around a enforcement doesn't mean that it shouldn't be enforced. We see everyday what choices people make, yes they will be punished but that doesn't erase that on the other side there is someone who is harmed. How can you be okay with giving someone the choice of whether or not he wants to harm himself and society?

Also about campaigning against the drugs has been done and still is going on. Problem is that usually these campaigns are not based on truth and are highly exaggerated. People are smarter than believing in such a lies without finding information by themselves, rather than adopt "truths" which are spoon fed to them.

I apologize when i say campaign I don't mean spoon feeding people "truths" I mean showing them what it really is and how harmful it is, and getting themselves to realize that it is harmless. My teachers always say you can't change someone else you can just get him to realize he himself needs to change. They do exaggerate that is true but I wouldn't campaign the way they do. You can't spoon feed people "truths" unless the "truths" are what they want to believe (todays society)

To give you an example: the only ingredient for wine is fruit, of any kind. Ferment the fruit, filter it, done. You cannot snap your fingers and make alcohol go away.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to stop it.

 

[MJ1284]

It's not as black and white as OP makes it sound like. People are different and some people should never get drunk/high on anything. But I know people(me included) who don't do bad choices while runk/high(note that I don't do drugs much, pretty much not at all, these days). I never got involved in a fight, drove a car, talk *chocolate cookies* to others or anything else which would be considered a bad choices done under influence.

Maybe not bad choices, but bad grammar mistakes? I'd say yes.

 

[Allahrules2]

You just can't do it. That's the fact. It's very naive of you thinking it would solve the problem. I edited my latest post before this I suggest you to read it again. Damn people are quick with their replys.

I'm just lounging around on my weekend what can I say

 

[Allahrules2]

Maybe not bad choices, but bad grammar mistakes? I'd say yes.

For your mothers sake don't point out insignificant things like this. If you want to join the conversation then do so.

 

[Disci]

Not to be rude by any means, but did you miss the part where I told you, that even though drugs are banned, I could get them as easily as walking in the store and buy a bottle of vodka? You can't make these things go away by banning them. At this point, read Sawdust's post.

About giving people right information and why they should not use these products. People already know they should not but just because we are human beings, we use them. We should get rid of unexpect deaths of family members, depression, lost of a job etc which actually causes people to start drinking heavily. It's not because they are uninformed, it's because *chocolate cookies* happens and/or people just don't care.

 

[Astrum]

I believe that both are very harmful and that they should be stayed away from and outlawed. Number one reason is because they make you lose control of yourself. A drunk man is capable of anything. He isn't aware of what is going on so he could do anything. Same with someone who is high. Because of the aforementioned reason drugs and alchohol cause many problems in society.

A drunk man is not capable of anything. I was drunk last night after going to a brewmasters dinner. Want to know what I did? Came home, played a bit of Just Cause 2, went to bed. Didn't drive a car, rob a convenient store, murder a bunch of children, or punch puppies. Strange! Naturally alcohol is a drug, and each drug has a different effect. Alcohol lowers social inhibitions, cannabis is euphoric, etc...

How many broken families owe it all to liquor and drugs.

How many owe it to being an incompatible couple, or marrying young and having children, or fathers who abandon the family, or adultery, or even poverty?

How many homeless bums are on the streets because they couldn't control their habit.

How many homeless people have you met? I've met a ton and while there are plenty of addicts there's plenty of people who have fallen on extremely hard times or just can't integrate themselves in with society.

How many innocent people have been murdered in a drunken rage?

How many innocent people have been murdered in a regular rage? Or better yet, how many innocent people have been murdered in war and genocide?

How many innocents have died because of a drunk driver?

How many innocents have died because of regular bad drivers?

So we are going stake lives, families, children, and money on peoples self control? That sounds pretty stupid does it not? Humans have a very very hard time controlling themselves, for that reason I don't think the odds are too good.

Do you have any idea how much drug and alcohol use there is compared to how much crime (excluding purchase of drugs) is committed by those people?

When I say banning I mean a thorough stop of the substances. Cutting off the supply, whatever it takes to stop it, an actual effort to stop the people who sell it, and a campaign to get people to realize that they're harmful. That's what I mean when I say ban.

Right. So prohibition failed epically in the United States. Drug prohibition has been going on for decades and an absolutely astounding amount of money is spent trying to curb its sale and use. There's PSAs all the time and plenty of things like DARE which try to "educate" you on the subject (though it's mostly incorrect propaganda). Now for the great bit, drug sale and use has increased, not decreased. Not only that but it gave way (just like in prohibition) to the rise of organized crime such as the Mexican drug cartels and gangs. Seems to me you can't legislate and enforce that sort of human behavior. It's pretty much been proven at this point.

 

[Allahrules2]

Yes I read that part. The current bans aren't being enforced the way they really should be. Don't worry you aren't rude.

and why they should not use these products. People already know they should not but just because we are human beings, we use them. We should get rid of unexpect deaths of family members, depression, lost of a job etc which actually causes people to start drinking heavily. It's not because they are uninformed, it's because *chocolate cookies* happens and/or people just don't care.

My good friend you are forgetting that when someone drinks and starts making bad choices it's not just him who is involved. It's not just his problem, his choices could very well harm other people. I'm not just talking about drugs. Banning doesn't mean just making them go away it's tried to get a hold on it and stop it as much as you can. Simply because governments today aren't really enforcing these bans doesn't mean that banning something is impossible. You can never make something "go away" you can reduce it as much as you can. And however much you reduce the less harm that those things can be to people

 

[Allahrules2]

A drunk man is not capable of anything. I was drunk last night after going to a brewmasters dinner. Want to know what I did? Came home, played a bit of Just Cause 2, went to bed. Didn't drive a car, rob a convenient store, murder a bunch of children, or punch puppies. Strange! Naturally alcohol is a drug, and each drug has a different effect. Alcohol lowers social inhibitions, cannabis is euphoric, etc...

How many owe it to being an incompatible couple, or marrying young and having children, or fathers who abandon the family, or adultery, or even poverty?

How many homeless people have you met? I've met a ton and while there are plenty of addicts there's plenty of people who have fallen on extremely hard times or just can't integrate themselves in with society.

How many innocent people have been murdered in a regular rage? Or better yet, how many innocent people have been murdered in war and genocide?

How many innocents have died because of regular bad drivers?

Do you have any idea how much drug and alcohol use there is compared to how much crime (excluding purchase of drugs) is committed by those people?

Right. So prohibition failed epically in the United States. Drug prohibition has been going on for decades and an absolutely astounding amount of money is spent trying to curb its sale and use. There's PSAs all the time and plenty of things like DARE which try to "educate" you on the subject (though it's mostly incorrect propaganda). Now for the great bit, drug sale and use has increased, not decreased. Not only that but it gave way (just like in prohibition) to the rise of organized crime such as the Mexican drug cartels and gangs. Seems to me you can't legislate and enforce that sort of human behavior. It's pretty much been proven at this point.

So just because there are other reasons why these things happen we aren't going to stop another way for those things to happen? True the American government failed I can't say anything to that. But I never said that something like this would work in America or any other democratic state and I am aware of that. If you get what I am poking at.

 

[Astrum]

Yes I read that part. The current bans aren't being enforced the way they really should be. Don't worry you aren't rude.

My good friend you are forgetting that when someone drinks and starts making bad choices it's not just him who is involved. It's not just his problem, his choices could very well harm other people. I'm not just talking about drugs. Banning doesn't mean just making them go away it's tried to get a hold on it and stop it as much as you can. Simply because governments today aren't really enforcing these bans doesn't mean that banning something is impossible. You can never make something "go away" you can reduce it as much as you can. And however much you reduce the less harm that those things can be to people

Oh please enlighten us how they should enforce these bans.

How can they stop production? Drugs are grown and/or produced both domestically as well as in foreign countries. We obviously have no legal control over other countries so we'll save that for distribution. Domestically what can we do? Cannabis can be grown in fields until the DEA canvases the area (which they do) and eventually torch the place and make arrests. It can also be grown inside your own home away from prying eyes. Of course your power will increase and utility companies will report such variances to law enforcement agencies. The DEA also does thermal imaging via helicopters trying to find these things. They're already pouring millions of dollars into this stuff, what more can they do? Let's move on to alcohol. I'm a home brewer... You'd never know I was making any since it just requires use of the oven (or some heat source), water, grains (which are plentiful for food), yeast (easy to reuse), and hops which can be grown just about anywhere. Okay, how about a hard drug like methamphetamine. Well that's made from various pills in the grocery store along with a few other things that are easy to obtain. Granted the drug companies have been putting in more and more things into the pills to prevent this, and legislation has been passed so you can only buy a few of these pills a month and have to give your identification. Production still marches forward though!

So how about distribution. Domestically distribution doesn't matter, it's already in the country and on the streets. However, what about from a foreign country? Well that's even more difficult! The drug cartels have been using submarines to transport mass quantities of drugs into the country. They've even dug tunnels between the USA and Mexico to transport drugs through. How do you even begin to stop that? Let's not forget about mules who carry it across the border, despite border checks which are numerous.

And what about the end sale, how do you stop that? A cop every 100 feet? Perhaps some execution squads with pee cups and mp5's going house to house? I know that sounds a bit extreme, but considering about a third or more of the United States population uses drugs and/or alcohol I don't see them all fitting in prisons, do you?

So please, tell me how you can possibly stop these from being produced, distributed, and sold.

 

[Astrum]

So just because there are other reasons why these things happen we aren't going to stop another way for those things to happen? True the American government failed I can't say anything to that. But I never said that something like this would work in America or any other democratic state and I am aware of that. If you get what I am poking at.

I'm talking quantities, not reasons. It's like the war on terror. You are far more likely to die in an automobile accident or from a heart attack than you are from a terrorist. Yet we spend billions fighting the war on terror, and automobiles and fatty foods are perfectly legal. Crimes committed while on drugs* or alcohol is dwarfed by crimes committed while not. Why not go after the larger socioeconomic problems? Oh that's right, drugs and alcohol are wonderful scapegoats. It's also typical of Western puritanical philosophies.

*Crime committed because of drugs would also probably decrease if it were legalized since it would not longer be frowned upon but treated as an actual disease that addiction really is.

"Alcoholism is a disease, but it's the only one you can get yelled at for having. Goddamn it Otto, you are an alcoholic. Goddamn it Otto, you have Lupus... one of those two doesn't sound right."--Mitch Hedberg

 

[Allahrules2]

........

This my friend is where you got me.

Unfortunately I know that it is harmful and bad and should be prevented. But preventing it is nearly impossible in the great nation known as America. Not only America but in the western world . I do love me my Mitch Hedberg I remember hearing that line a long time ago. In a "REAL" Muslim nation this would be much easier and unfortunately my past posts were based off of that. In America and in general The West it is near impossible to stop.

This was a nice debate and I appreciate all of your contributions. You guys helped me think about this some more. Hope to see you guys again some other time

-Omer

 

[NightHawk043]

Personally, I'm against excessive alcohol, but not against alcohol in general.
There's no denying, I'm from a drinking society (Australia). Compared to most countries, there's very few people who don't drink alcohol regularly here. Whether that be the odd drink now and again, or getting smashed every Wednesday, Friday and Saturday evening.

Being someone who knows people who do get excessively drunk regularly, I can tell you that the alcohol doesn't turn them into monster's who are capable of anything. All the alcohol does, is remove the inhibitions that they may have. Yes, this means that you get the odd fight happen, but the people who start them are naturally violent people anyway.

I personally have gotten far drunker than I'd like to admit on several occasions, and no one would say I got violent (though I do tend to shout a bit more).

On the topic of drugs, having a mother who is a doctor has meant that I've known all the negative sides long before I knew of the positives. As a result, while I would not force my decision on anyone, I always try to suggest people stay away from drugs. (People who say cannabis is completely safe ought to learn more about it causing psychosis in users, not to mention the usual cancer problems, as a result of smoking it.)

On the other hand, prohibition I feel, is the wrong way to go about it, at least with most drugs.
Past attempts show that this doesn't go down to well.
Odd that it may seem, with a lot of the drugs it would actually be far better to legalise them, but have them on a controlled system, where users are on a roster and they buy it with prescriptions in a pharmacy.

There's many reason's for this:
Firstly, if it was legal, it would be far cheaper for those who actually use. (Illegal drugs tend to get a humongous mark-up by the dealers, for obvious reasons). As a result of this, their addiction would be less harmful financially. This also would mean that the black market would die out, as who would pay a fortune when they could get what they need cheaply.

Secondly, the purity can be controlled, which makes it Safer to use, as there's less likely to be accidental overdoses from varying purity, and there will also be less harmful substances mixed in for cost saving purposes.

Thirdly, legal drugs don't tend to have the same ring to it. Add on the massive campaigns about negative sides to the drugs (talking the harder drugs here of course), and less people would want to Start taking them. Such a thing is tried and proven. For example, here in Australia, Cigarettes are required to have health messages With pictures included, that show the kind of damage it does internally (trust me, it's not pretty). Use has also been banned in nearly every public place, and the price has been steadily raised over many years. (but is still far cheaper than it would be if for example they banned cigarettes, and a black market for them appeared). As a result of this, smoking has dropped massively here in Western Australia.

Fourthly, Very few doctors would be likely to help people start an addiction to these drugs, so wouldn't prescribe them, and as a result, there would be less people using over time.

There are more reasons, but those four should be enough for starters.

 

[Disci]

In a "REAL" Muslim nation this would be much easier and unfortunately my past posts were based off of that.

I'd rather have 100% people in the world addicted to drugs and alcohol than living in a nation ran by a religion.

 

[Allahrules2]

I'd rather have 100% people in the world addicted to drugs and alcohol than living in a nation ran by a religion.

And this my friend is a topic for another day.

 

[Disci]

And this my friend is a topic for another day.

Yes, it's a topic I would rather not discuss with anyone really. Kinda like politics