A big post which was off-topic, but had some good points

[Strife]

Posting this (a post in another thread) for Nept, by request, as he does not feel like dealing with his throttled connection.
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It's really not the case, Daphinicus, as most labour-of-love games aren't piggy-backing off existing code. As someone with a degree in game development, you're aware, I'm sure, of the explosive popularity and success of recent indy games. Personally, I'm eagerly awaiting Overgrowth's release. They're not completely comparable, with a development team skilled enough to create their own engine and toolset, an ip that they own, and an intelligent pre-order and progression plan (which has allowed for full time development), but it's certainly an independent,labour-of-love project. Last time I checked, they had four team members. Of course, we need only browse steam, the x-box live marketplace, or the apple app store to see the latest indy successes.


Independent game development is as much about realistic expectations as it is passion and hope; and it is simply unrealistic to expect significant growth on an "ancient engine" in an unloved game. I expect you realize that, especially given your choice to ignore my points and attack my motivations.

Legions Overdrive has been restricted from the outset, with its tenuous legality, archaic (verbiage is wonderful, isn't it?) engine, unprofitable nature, miniscule development team (smaller still when considering people comfortable with coding) and already-unpopular reputation with the Tribes community. The way I see it (which, granted isn't the only way) is that there were two options: 1) keep the game going as was, for those who enjoyed it (much as has happened with Tribes 2) - minimal gameplay changes and many more maps; or 2) attempt to attract many more players - make drastic, sweeping changes, on a new engine, and with a new name/IP. IA got away with Legions, so I'm sure an indy team would've gotten away with something similar. Perhaps, though, even the latter choice would've been unrealistic.

Of course, you can always make broad, sweeping changes on the existing engine and expect that the masses will flock; just don't get your panties in a bunch when someone suggests otherwise.

A realistic outlook also aids a game's community. So many expectations are artificially buoyed by the promise of new blood, an infusion of new players and talent. But in all likelihood, that is simply not going to happen. That new player toward whom you were a douchebag? He's probably not going to come back, and he's probably not going to be replaced. That team you detest? That's one of three teams that'll play you. There's no room for "Team Curb-stomp Zeta's Face" and its ilk. (Although that particular period provided some hilarious pm's. You can ask Kryst about it, APC.)

You'd best play nice.

That was my point, Daphy, old buddy, old boy, old pal; best friend forever, comrade-in-arms, partner-in-crime. (I tease). Sometimes a good glass of realism helps wash down the bitter pill of small communities. My message isn't one of discord and disunity - just that we must work with what we've been given. And we have to accept our situation, not hide behind rosy-hued optimism. Granted, I'm not a personal fan of certain developers (and certain developers aren't fans of mine), and I won't hesistate to argue my points.

You're free to argue back.

 

[Daphinicus]

Okay! I'll admit, this wasn't exactly how I pictured this being re-posted, but that's cool. FYI, for anyone who's having trouble keeping track of the context of this post, you can read through the original thread here.

It's really not the case, Daphinicus, as most labour-of-love games aren't piggy-backing off existing code.

True, but that doesn't mean the same passion ain't behind it. When I think about all the begging and pleading with IA that happened while IA was offline; the constant comments and requests to Crash and Wiley about the status of Legions; and the community's joy (including my own) when it finally came back up in the form of Legions: Overdrive, I see passion for the game, even if it is among a fairly small community. And when I see the work that's going on behind the scenes by the developers in every free moment they've got, I see a labor of love.

Personally, I'm eagerly awaiting Overgrowth's release. They're not completely comparable, with a development team skilled enough to create their own engine and toolset, an ip that they own, and an intelligent pre-order and progression plan (which has allowed for full time development), but it's certainly an independent,labour-of-love project. Last time I checked, they had four team members. Of course, we need only browse steam, the x-box live marketplace, or the apple app store to see the latest indy successes.

Sounds like an epic team working on that game. I'd argue we have an equally dedicated team, but with different opportunities. The bulk of us have jobs or school outside of Legions, and can't work full-time on it. More power to those that can!

Independent game development is as much about realistic expectations as it is passion and hope; and it is simply unrealistic to expect significant growth on an "ancient engine" in an unloved game. I expect you realize that, especially given your choice to ignore my points and attack my motivations.

A agree with your point that realistic expectations are important; I've mentioned it on more than one occasion with the developers, testers, and even the wider community. And, good grief, do I agree that Torque is ancient as hell and worth garroting yourself over if you have the displeasure of needing to work in it. But the reason we are working in it ain't because Legions is "unloved" -- it most certainly isn't. As I mentioned above, Legions came back because the community begged for it and the dev team was willing to step up to the plate. That sounds like love to me.

Of course we're not trying to make the next breakout game. We're just trying to put together a fun one we all love to play. =)

Legions Overdrive has been restricted from the outset, with its tenuous legality, archaic (verbiage is wonderful, isn't it?) engine, unprofitable nature, miniscule development team (smaller still when considering people comfortable with coding) and already-unpopular reputation with the Tribes community. The way I see it (which, granted isn't the only way) is that there were two options: 1) keep the game going as was, for those who enjoyed it (much as has happened with Tribes 2) - minimal gameplay changes and many more maps; or 2) attempt to attract many more players - make drastic, sweeping changes, on a new engine, and with a new name/IP. IA got away with Legions, so I'm sure an indy team would've gotten away with something similar. Perhaps, though, even the latter choice would've been unrealistic.

I won't lie, I'd love to remake Legions in UE3. We're running up against so many roadblocks in Torque it feels like Mabe's gonna get an ulcer. But our goal here isn't to make the next great Tribes -- that's Hi-Res's job, and good luck to them. Our goal was to bring back, polish, and improve upon Legions, as it was loved by the community. Will it last? Good grief, I have no idea. Almost assuredly not as long as Tribes lasted -- there are still servers running T1 today.

Maybe once we've gotten Legions to a point where it feels more like a game and less like a demo, we'll move on to something else, in UE3, or the next big engine, or whatever. More likely, we'll go our separate ways. But we will have completed what we set out to do: bring back Legions, and work to make it better for the community that loves it.

A realistic outlook also aids a game's community. So many expectations are artificially buoyed by the promise of new blood, an infusion of new players and talent. But in all likelihood, that is simply not going to happen. That new player toward whom you were a douchebag? He's probably not going to come back, and he's probably not going to be replaced. That team you detest? That's one of three teams that'll play you. There's no room for "Team Curb-stomp Zeta's Face" and its ilk. (Although that particular period provided some hilarious pm's. You can ask Kryst about it, APC.)

You'd best play nice.

Very true; that hoped-for infusion of hundreds of new players probably won't happen. But we do continue to get new players all the time, and how we treat them continues to be important, as you've pointed out. You're right -- we should be playing nicer with everyone we meet. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Legions' greatest fault is the subconscious elitism in its community. And all of us -- ALL of us -- either are or have been guilty of that.

Although, I should point out, we haven't tried marketing the game at all. And that's intentional -- we don't want to just yet. The game's not ready! But once it is, we'll do our best to let the world know, and let fate decide where the game goes from there.

That was my point, Daphy, old buddy, old boy, old pal; best friend forever, comrade-in-arms, partner-in-crime. (I tease). Sometimes a good glass of realism helps wash down the bitter pill of small communities. My message isn't one of discord and disunity - just that we must work with what we've been given. And we have to accept our situation, not hide behind rosy-hued optimism. Granted, I'm not a personal fan of certain developers (and certain developers aren't fans of mine), and I won't hesistate to argue my points.

I really don't mean to have my use of "bud" rub you so wrong, dude. By habit, I use it as a friendly greeting or tension-loosener; a way of addressing someone and letting them know it's all good at the same time. I'll stop using it when talking to ya.

Regarding the rest of that graf: It seems to me, the situation is what the situation is. We can either let it pull us down, or use it to boost us up. I, for one, would rather be happy that we're trying to make the best game out of Legions we can, than sad that Legions won't become the next smash FPS+Z super-success. Who cares? We're having fun. The community's having fun. And if folks want to hope for something that probably won't be, I'm not going to go out of my way to tear that hope apart. Seems a bit too callous for my tastes, especially when you really never know what's going to happen -- not for certain. =)

 

[Chi-Ro]

than sad that Legions won't become the next smash FPS+Z super-success. Who cares?

Just to point out, if Legions doesn't get a larger community and people have to keep playing/scrimming the same other people over and over again it's going to die. Fast. It really doesn't matter how good it is, or how much you update it. As soon as you stop making new things for people to oogle over in-game, if there aren't more people coming in or a much larger community Legions will die pretty darn fast (as shown by IA).

So while no one expects it to be a super-success, you pretty much have to get somewhere with it.

 

[Daphinicus]

Just to point out, if Legions doesn't get a larger community and people have to keep playing/scrimming the same other people over and over again it's going to die. Fast. It really doesn't matter how good it is, or how much you update it. As soon as you stop making new things for people to oogle over in-game, if there aren't more people coming in or a much larger community Legions will die pretty darn fast (as shown by IA).

So while no one expects it to be a super-success, you pretty much have to get somewhere with it.

As I said (and as has been said elsewhere on the forums), once the game is in better shape we have every intention of advertising and getting the word out. But there are still so many rough edges, it's tough to make a good impression with newbloods.

At the very LEAST, let us get a decent user manual up. =)

 

[MJ1284]

The question is, WHEN is the game going to be in better shape? Will it be before or after the community has dispersed and moved on to other games? Not all of us are aware how much work there's left before Legions can be considered "finished" in terms of development.

As for user manual, I've seen plenty of posts regarding "How to play CTF" or "Basic movement in Legions" etc. here on forums.
Why not share some of the workload to community fellows? I'm sure there are plenty of people around here willing to assist you in various things regarding tutorials & guides and such documentations.

 

[DeadGuy]

The question is, WHEN is the game going to be in better shape? Will it be before or after the community has dispersed and moved on to other games? Not all of us are aware how much work there's left before Legions can be considered "finished" in terms of development.

As for user manual, I've seen plenty of posts regarding "How to play CTF" or "Basic movement in Legions" etc. here on forums.
Why not share some of the workload to community fellows? I'm sure there are plenty of people around here willing to assist you in various things regarding tutorials & guides and such documentations.

I don't think we can give a time nor a state when Legions will be considered completed. Even after gameplay is solidified we will most likely be making additions in some minor form, like adding maps and such, to keep things from stagnation. As to an idea of when those changes will be "nearer" completion I will give the rough guess of at least 3 months. Keep in mind though, we thought that we could fix the IFFs rather quickly in less than a week, only to find latent (horrible) code that had to be completely redone in order to fix things. If more of these types of problems come up then our progress will be slower (!).

For the tutorials, I'd prefer something interactive in-game for uses to be able to select when they first launch the game, which of course is up to us to create. For things that the public could do to help, I think youtube vids, being patient, and teaching players in-game would serve the community best, rather than walls of text on the forums that a majority of our players don't read regularly. If you want to make text tutorials though by all means feel free since every bit counts.

 

[Propkid]

I'm sorry, but my first expectation for Legions when IA went down was that the game will cease to exist; that IA will looks for an investor/buyer and that he'll never appear. And you won't believe how happy I was when I first played L:O and saw that the game WORKS.

I never played Tribes. I started up Legions about a month before the GLS was nerfed. So I was basically learning to play with GLS, RLS and CGS about. I have only discovered the dedicated servers a couple months later (was never bothered to scroll down the buggy server list ;D) so I was learning to play in player-hosted matches. I was bullied by Ajaxis (lol), yet I didn't quit. Now reconsider this statement:

the promise of new blood, an infusion of new players and talent. But in all likelihood, that is simply not going to happen. That new player toward whom you were a douchebag? He's probably not going to come back, and he's probably not going to be replaced.

There are no newbloods in Legions; there haven't been for a long time, and there won't be any time soon (i.e., ever).

Another bold statement, but you can't back it up. Not that I'm sure it is untrue, but to me it feels like the game's population is changing, as I keep on meeting new people/ elitists training their friends. I think that we need a dev to give us some statistics if we are to agree on this (once they are done with the new weapons, maps, change log, game modes and gfx of course ;p)

 

[Vinzyboy23]

I guess Legions has been changed badly and is progressing slower than it was IA ......

Why am I saying this?

I think that we need a dev to give us some statistics if we are to agree on this (once they are done with the new weapons, maps, change log, game modes and gfx of course ;p)

That is, that is what I am waiting for, the stats. The DEV Team may require a little more time at making those things but we need information about their progress. Also, it'll make the game popular again. There are some things that most online standalone games need like in-game lobby, in-game items, more servers, weapon and maps, ads, etc.

QUICK EDIT : Did I even forgot that Legions: Overdrive is still in incomplete?

 

[Daphinicus]

I guess Legions has been changed badly and is progressing slower than it was IA ......

Why am I saying this?


That is, that is what I am waiting for, the stats. The DEV Team may require a little more time at making those things but we need information about their progress. Also, it'll make the game popular again. There are some things that most online standalone games need like in-game lobby, in-game items, more servers, weapon and maps, ads, etc.

QUICK EDIT : Did I even forgot that Legions: Overdrive is still in incomplete?

Facepalm.

It's been a month, folks. One month since the L:O Beta was released. I'm not going to list all the stuff that's happened in that month, but given the fact that the devs are all working on this in their spare time, what has been done is a freakin' miracle! And there's more coming soon. You know our progress: We're working on several new maps in addition to those already released, have new weapons and base assets in the pipeline, and gameplay changes to boot. IFF fixes are coming soon, too. The reason we don't give exact release dates for any of these additions is because we don't know them, and the reason we don't know them is, once again, because we're doing this in our spare time. Stuff comes up, like the code issues Dead pointed out, and we can't foresee it. But please -- please -- try to remember that we're doing our damndest. =)

Oh, and regarding Stats: They're on our list, but not for the immediate future. Stats are a self-checking and competitive tool, used to help players gauge their skill levels. Given we only have a demo of a game, it seems more prudent to us to introduce new content than to work on giving players the ability to track their skill level in a version of the game that will soon be changing fairly dramatically anyway.

 

[Dabbleh]

the promise of new blood, an infusion of new players and talent. But in all likelihood, that is simply not going to happen. That new player toward whom you were a douchebag? He's probably not going to come back, and he's probably not going to be replaced.

I remember when I started playing Legions, I was pwnt, ownt and every other variation of ownage, but I didn't give up. We have to remember that this is a pretty hardcore game, it takes some time to get any good at it. These new bloods you talk of, they obviously aren't that bothered with the game if they are going to give up and never play again. So, therefore, we need to aim this game at the people that WILL stay and practice for countless hours, the hardcore gamers.

Legions is the opposite to CoD.

 

[Propkid]

I'm not going to list all the stuff that's happened in that month

BUT I WANTS CHANGELOG!!!

Oh, and regarding Stats: They're on our list, but not for the immediate future. Stats are a self-checking and competitive tool, used to help players gauge their skill levels. Given we only have a demo of a game, it seems more prudent to us to introduce new content than to work on giving players the ability to track their skill level in a version of the game that will soon be changing fairly dramatically anyway.

By stats we (or just I) mean playerbase statistics- how many registered player accounts, how many daily/weekly/monthly active accounts, how many new accounts a week etc. That would answer the question whether 'there are no newbloods in Legions' or not.

Oh and if I didn't mention it already; I do agree that the amount of work you are getting done is miraculous ;D We should have Mabel's head cut off and wired up to a large quantum computer so that his coding performance isn't affected by such distractions as food, sleep, urination or porn.

 

[Daphinicus]

We should have Mabel's head cut off and wired up to a large quantum computer so that his coding performance isn't affected by such distractions as ... porn.

That just ain't gonna happen. Every coder needs his pr0n.

 

[phanakapan]

is there any particular reason why the community isnt being allowed to create maps in droves? I understood the whole bullshit IA takes a million years to update everything on the site to change one pillar on one map, but isnt that no longer an issue? I think it would be great to take all of the maps from the past, all of the maps never released, and let people create new ones; take those maps and put them on some kind of experimental maps only server; let the community sift through them; and let the good ones rise to the top and become part of normal rotations on the other servers. If a map sucks, it will be made known and go away. If a map is awesome, any issues with it can be fixed and it can enter rotation on all of the servers.

I think this could happen to a lot of content beyond just maps, but maps is the start.

 

[Daphinicus]

@Phan:

As we have stated countless times, we don't have the ability to release player hosted servers or the map editor (which is just a player hosted game) for the time being. We really do want to allow player hosting (why wouldn't we) and more modding capabilities, but it's not an option at the moment.

The editor can never be separated from the code to host your own game.

I spoke just last night with the devs about this, and it doesn't look good. Due to the (wholly bizarre) design of the Torque engine, and more specifically the way in which Legions was built, the map editor contains everything -- everything -- necessary to make the game. Physics. Assets. The list goes on. This means that releasing the map editor in its current form (which, apparently, is buggy as all hell, but that shouldn't surprise anyone who's worked with Torque before) would be rather similar to open-sourcing Legions development. Since that's not an option, the editor needs to remain closed off for now.

And, from the FAQ:

We are currently investigating ways to allow users to host their own games, but out of security and community unity concerns, for the near future players can only join official dedicated servers.

So the answer, unfortunately, is no. Not right now, anyways.

 

[phanakapan]

ok, so instead of releasing the editor to the public, add a few more devs who are interested in map development. This also doesnt address why the maps from IA and the maps that were previewed but never released by IA cant be put on a single server and allow people to say whether they like them or not. take a map like OSS for example. it's more or less done from what i understand, so whats the issue with releasing it? I know stealth and bravo made a few more or less completed maps as well.

 

[Mabeline]

By stats we (or just I) mean playerbase statistics- how many registered player accounts, how many daily/weekly/monthly active accounts, how many new accounts a week etc. That would answer the question whether 'there are no newbloods in Legions' or not.

In the past month our NA account count has increased by over 20%, (some 250 on the east coast alone since I last checked in mid January!).

 

[MJ1284]

@ Mabel:
Out of curiosity, how many of these 250 have logged on only once and how many have become "regulars"?

 

[Daphinicus]

ok, so instead of releasing the editor to the public, add a few more devs who are interested in map development. This also doesnt address why the maps from IA and the maps that were previewed but never released by IA cant be put on a single server and allow people to say whether they like them or not. take a map like OSS for example. it's more or less done from what i understand, so whats the issue with releasing it? I know stealth and bravo made a few more or less completed maps as well.

Bravo's new map is undergoing significant testing and revision (and features, if I may say so, the best base interiors we have in a map so far, thanks to a bravo/Faren one-two punch).

If you know any qualified, articulate, mature individuals out there with level design experience, feel free to send them our way; we'd love to grow the team. Have them put together a resume and cover letter and send it to Bugs!

And as for One Small Step, I'd love to see that in play, but it would need heavy testing and possible revisions, based on what I've seen Buhlitz say about it.

 

[RainPilot]

In the past month our NA account count has increased by over 20%, (some 250 on the east coast alone since I last checked in mid January!).

Are those just accounts, or new IP's? I'm pretty sure everyone has at least one smurf account.

 

[w00tyou]

Well if we can't develope bases, assets ect. ourselfs as a comunity can always concept draw to give ideas.
I wish i could learn how to make things in hammer. (if there is anyone out there who could teach me)