More perceptive than thou, definitely; holier than thou, though? Hardly. In fact, I'm sure you just gave Daphinicus a chuckle.
I thought my point was obvious: that you missed the gist of Outlawl's argument. You used hyperbole to make light of his position, as you perceived it. You perceived it wrong, though, and I used hyperbole to make that obvious. Or so I thought.
Outlawl isn't stating “that unless you're playing completely seriously about CTF, you shouldn't be playing a pub”. He's stating “that pub players don't typically play poorly, just for kicks. There's no effort switch flicked to 30% upon entering a pub server; people may not play “pug serious”, but they'll typically play somewhat seriously”. And I imagine you, Jack, weren't saying that you sabotage pubs by intentionally playing poorly. Unfortunately, that's how Outlawl took your initial statement; then you mistook his, and that's how this entire debacle unfolded.
Jack said:
It was slightly unclear, but common sense ought to have kicked in. (and you mean latter).
If we're quibbling, then no, I mean preceding – as in the sentence preceding mine, as in “Existing or coming before another or others in time, place, rank, or sequence; previous”. The sentence was in a quote, yes, but “common sense ought to have kicked in”. In fact, using “latter” and “former” would've been downright incorrect, as the first sentence wasn't technically the “former”.
Also, no, common sense doesn't always kick in when someone's emotionally charged; elsewise, you may've noticed that you and Outlawl were misinterpreting each other's points.
Personal attacks aside, the crux of my post remains: Noone's saying you have to try super-serious hard during pubs. Outlawl's stating that while the environment is less competitive, most Legions players do try – to some extent – during pubs. And pubs, while less competitive than pugs, have the potential to become challenging, skill-building games. Almost all of what followed (and even Outlawl's initial post) was a result of misinterpretation, on both your parts.
Settled? Good.
Now onto the second point, and onto more personal attacks. I actually enjoy people responding in such a manner, since whenever I start something similar, Daphinicus and Brit-Nazi edit my posts.
First, the point: Pubs provide potentially fun, challenging games with an opportunity for skill development as large as that of pugs.
Second, the personal attacks:
Jack said:
Irony++. Okay, remind me how you think a pub and a pub that has your team (because you called them into the server) on opposite sides are remotely similar? And now you are going to use that latter definition to set up the rest of your argument, rofl. If you noticed, I said, "decent clan member" earlier.
While I did provide anecdotal evidence at the end of my post, I did so with a disclaimer; I didn't attempt, as you did, to pass off “ask so-and-so” as fact. Also, there's no false precision in my post. Coincidentally, there's no irony – and certainly not irony to the plus plus! I suppose you could call my perceptual skills into question, as you did previously, but I've already debunked that bit.
Also, no, I'm not going to use that “latter definition to set up the rest of [my] argument, rofl”. I used that example as evidence that pubs can be skillful. All it takes are some skilled players; and in terms of developing positional skill, one or two friends can do the trick. Are you not in TS most of the time, anyway? Could you not ask a couple friends to hop in and run routes? Maybe ask them to play LD against your routes? Snipe? HoF? Again, you'd be surprised at how few “serious playing” playing it takes to get a good pub going.
Jack said:
Wait, so you actually think it wasn't remarkably obvious that those were made up statistics? Really? Really?
/Mabel Voice REEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLYYYY??!!!
Yes, it was remarkably obvious that those were made up statistics. That's sort of the point of the false precision fallacy. False precision. False. It's not called the fudging data fallacy. There's a reason people say “Most so and so do so and so”, instead of “96% of so and so do so and so”. I'll leave that reason for you to figure out.
Jack said:
Now that you realize how obvious that is, think about the intent of them. As I said, you can talk to any T1 LT pickup player, and they'll have the same exact story. And it's incredibly obvious - night and day. People who've been terrible for years (literally), get much much better after playing pickups for a month.
Thinking about the intent of your false precision fallacy doesn't alter your massively anecdotal evidence. Guess what? There's also a reason we don't cite anecdotal evidence as fact. Go reread my paragraph.
Jack said:
What are you arguing? I completely agree.
That's cute. No, Jack, your initial point was that skills increase much more quickly while playing pugs. I stated “You're also oversimplifying skill development by relegating it to the realm of positional play”. I'd ask you to reread the paragraph, but since you're in so much of a huff, I'll reiterate here: there are many skills to be developed in Legions, of which playing particular positions are only a few. Certain skills, such as DM'ing, are better learned in the pub environment. You'd argue that others, such as LD and chase are better learned in a pug environment. That's dubious, though, especially if you've a friend or two willing to pub against you.
My overarching point is that pubs can be skillful and can develop skills as quickly, or more quickly, than do pugs. It all depends on your opposition, and on the willingness of players to actually play.
So, no – I don't agree with your previous posts, and if you'll take the time to read mine and understand their points (instead of responding in a huff), that'll become obvious. Cute, though. Also, I wasn't aware you considered yourself a top player. That's cool
assive-Aggressive Smiley Face:.
P.S. Attempt to address the post as a whole in the future, instead of picking particular lines to which you believe you've smarmy responses. The latter results in poor debate, as the main points are often lost in flames.
