Shanks
Private Tester
Which is why this would be a decent feature to add. It forces teams to be more organized in order to do well.
How to mitigate llamaing?
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Which is why this would be a decent feature to add. It forces teams to be more organized in order to do well.
LunarSolstice
Member
What popped into my head on the topic of preventing llamas:
The respawn timer shortens to 1 sec within 5 secs of falg grab by an enemy llama.
Llamas take 1.5x damage from all sources, which decreases at a regular interval for 5 seconds, down to 1.1x damage, which remains until loss of falg or death.
Llamas also have a hard speed cap at 80, which increases at a regular interval for 20 seconds, up to 120. Lifted upon loss of falg or death.
Llamas are unable to OD, no matter what speed they are at, except for Sentinels, which are allowed to OD once after llama grabbing, at double the health cost. Lifted upon loss of falg or death.
The above will allow e-grabs to still happen while punishing llamas who try to hold on to the flag continuously.
Feel free to correct me (or just blam).
Also, I don't think using the word "mine" is appropriate, as mines typically induce a scene of violent explosions, which would be associated with knockbacks characteristic of Rocket/Grenade explosions.
The idea of automatically punishing anyone who touches the flag, even slightly (lower damage at higher speeds), sounds kinda off. The way "any capper will take damage if they try to grab" sounds kinda off.
The respawn timer shortens to 1 sec within 5 secs of falg grab by an enemy llama.
Llamas take 1.5x damage from all sources, which decreases at a regular interval for 5 seconds, down to 1.1x damage, which remains until loss of falg or death.
Llamas also have a hard speed cap at 80, which increases at a regular interval for 20 seconds, up to 120. Lifted upon loss of falg or death.
Llamas are unable to OD, no matter what speed they are at, except for Sentinels, which are allowed to OD once after llama grabbing, at double the health cost. Lifted upon loss of falg or death.
The above will allow e-grabs to still happen while punishing llamas who try to hold on to the flag continuously.
Feel free to correct me (or just blam).
Also, I don't think using the word "mine" is appropriate, as mines typically induce a scene of violent explosions, which would be associated with knockbacks characteristic of Rocket/Grenade explosions.
The idea of automatically punishing anyone who touches the flag, even slightly (lower damage at higher speeds), sounds kinda off. The way "any capper will take damage if they try to grab" sounds kinda off.
LunarSolstice
Member
The problem isn't "you", per se. It's that in pugs there are often an endless stream of llamas waiting at your base, and YOU by yourself can't cover all positions. Oh look I should go chase because nothing important is going on at our base (enemy has both falgs). Yay I killed the capper! Return falg! Llama. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.
LunarSolstice
Member
Well, the point is to offer suggestions that the devs can use. Leave it to them to comb through it.
Disci
Old man
Problem is that people are ignoring the fact that this problem that OP posted is not a problem at all because how the game works(well I admit that it's partly because how maps are made). Adding mines, turrets etc just to prevent llama grabs is silly. They probably will be added once developing this game is going further but the reason behind them being added is not going to be to prevent llama grabs. Whole discussion is silly. There are ways to prevent unneccesery llama grabs already but people are just too damn lazy to do it.
bethal
Member
well I see 2 things. llama is good in some sections like "oh sh*t there ganna cap" *grabs flag and runs like crazy* and of course whats the point of annoying the defence if you can't llama when you killed them all 
secondly most llamas stop after failing a few times, a good defence that watches flag can stop them a few times.
but yeah I also aggre with a new weapon for defending, I think an update for LR will give a big one but sentinals need some lovin too! I think all 3 types should get special offhands. like nades for raider. mines for sent. water pistol for outrider... ok I joke, but like what they did some time ago but I never used cos I didn't know the button. a huge cd on useing them can sort out any "omg there OP" I think
secondly most llamas stop after failing a few times, a good defence that watches flag can stop them a few times.
but yeah I also aggre with a new weapon for defending, I think an update for LR will give a big one but sentinals need some lovin too! I think all 3 types should get special offhands. like nades for raider. mines for sent. water pistol for outrider... ok I joke, but like what they did some time ago but I never used cos I didn't know the button. a huge cd on useing them can sort out any "omg there OP" I think
I'm going to have to disagree with you slightly, Disci. Llamaing isn't a huge issue normally, although I do think it is an issue. It stems from a lot of things. Map design in Legions is generally poor to really bad, it always has been. The game mechanics contribute as well given the relative ease to gain speed making llama grabbing not seem like such a bad idea to players. Would assets help? Slightly. Then again I don't think Tribes style turrets would work well in Legions, so I may be thinking of something different. Point is a lot of problems in legions are a culmination of poor map design and game mechanics inexplicably designed around those maps.
As far as suggestions as to mitigate llaming such as limiting speed, allowing players to pass through the flag if going under X speed, changing OD rules, etc... I have to say absolutely not. The worst things I see in game design (with some exceptions) are ability exceptions. Overdrive is already borderline silly for instance. When can you go into overdrive? That's not a simple answer. If you're a sentinel then you can go at any time, if you're one of the other two classes than you must be going 88+ m/s and near the ground or recently hit by an OD wake. Don't make me get out a flow chart to determine if I can do something or not.
As far as suggestions as to mitigate llaming such as limiting speed, allowing players to pass through the flag if going under X speed, changing OD rules, etc... I have to say absolutely not. The worst things I see in game design (with some exceptions) are ability exceptions. Overdrive is already borderline silly for instance. When can you go into overdrive? That's not a simple answer. If you're a sentinel then you can go at any time, if you're one of the other two classes than you must be going 88+ m/s and near the ground or recently hit by an OD wake. Don't make me get out a flow chart to determine if I can do something or not.
By-Tor
Private Tester
Keep in mind my opinion is coming from an old/slow player that has a hard time achieving OD grabs every time. But here goes:
1. Llama grabs are still grabs and if they get the flag off the stand, perhaps they are still successful. Maybe not in a cap, but in getting the Defense out of position.
2. Pubs are always going to have llama grabs. Period.
3. How to stop llama's? one word: Turrets! Either deployable or not. (Ever tried to llama on T1 Raindance without HO clearing out the turrets? doesn't happen.)
4. And I do agree that during a scrim or PUG, llama's are rarely successful because defense is 'setup' properly.
ps. If you see me running away with the flag at 86 speed, don't be hater, just feel sorry for my old ass! I did the best I could!
1. Llama grabs are still grabs and if they get the flag off the stand, perhaps they are still successful. Maybe not in a cap, but in getting the Defense out of position.
2. Pubs are always going to have llama grabs. Period.
3. How to stop llama's? one word: Turrets! Either deployable or not. (Ever tried to llama on T1 Raindance without HO clearing out the turrets? doesn't happen.)
4. And I do agree that during a scrim or PUG, llama's are rarely successful because defense is 'setup' properly.
ps. If you see me running away with the flag at 86 speed, don't be hater, just feel sorry for my old ass! I did the best I could!
mausgang
Puzzlemaster
Llamaing is really a criticism upon the defense if said llama gets away with it. I was playing in a pub that if I came in at any speed below ninety, a rocket would land in front of me, direct me into a wall, where I'd die from more rockets and grenades. A good HoF with an RL is all you need to take care of Llamas. Sure, it seems irritating, and when the llama gets away and does a successful cap (I've done that one or two times) its a huge slap in the face to the other team, and its understandable that they'll take up an anti-llama stance, but it is tactically viable to have llama grabs remain. They get the embarrassment of being labeled as a llama once they make the grab at low speeds, if that is an embarrassment, however, if they cap, then the embarrassment lands on the other team. It is necessary sometimes, emergency grabs, while irritating for a capper, are a viable tactic, and what viable tactics do is irritate the crap out of the enemy. That is how you know they work. the LO irratates the hell out of the defense because THAT IS THEIR JOB. The same applies to llama grabs. Its either a mistaken route, or it was pulled off because the defense didn't do their jobs right. I think the best way to mitigate llamas is to bodyblock or slow them down with rockets and grenades.
Propkid
Member
Llamas are not and never were an issue in games where there was at least one decent defender present on each team. If a llama grabbed your flag- be in defence next time. If you were in def and he got away... well the learning curve is steep isnt it?
The easiest way to counter a llama is to simply grab the enemy flag (I'm talking about PUBs ofc), giving your teammates to kill the llama. They shouldn't be penalized at all.
And if you stop a llama enough times he'll learn that this way of grabbing the flag is ineffective. You learn which method's right or wrong by failing.
The easiest way to counter a llama is to simply grab the enemy flag (I'm talking about PUBs ofc), giving your teammates to kill the llama. They shouldn't be penalized at all.
And if you stop a llama enough times he'll learn that this way of grabbing the flag is ineffective. You learn which method's right or wrong by failing.
LunarSolstice
Member
Because someone is hiding in the corner formed by the two low walls in Frostbite, behind your base, so that when your team returns the falg they can llama and laugh like they accomplished something. Then your team go kill them in the middle of the map and another llama snatches the falg and runs. Rinse, lather, repeat.
LunarSolstice
Member
But you gotta admit defense fail is one of the major reasons why people are whining about pubs.
LunarSolstice
Member
According to your logic from before, defense fail leads to successful llamas, and llamas lead to pub QQ (aka offence crying). But we're getting off topic.
It is really annoying when a llama grabber grabs right before a capper and dies midfield. But, we shouldn't be making mechanics that stop the fail in pubs. There will always be fail in pubs.
Also, Llama grabbing rarely happens in a sensible coordinated game and is not currently a problem on the most-played/good maps. This thread should've died a long time ago.
Also, Llama grabbing rarely happens in a sensible coordinated game and is not currently a problem on the most-played/good maps. This thread should've died a long time ago.
RiPTaCk
Member
I still like the idea of being killed instantly if you lama grab the flag but only when your own flag is at home. I don't know exactly at what speed "lama'd" gets "grabbed" but if you would reduce "lama'd" to <60 or <70 and then if you lama you get killed it would certainly improve Pubs a lot.
And it won't just help veterans not to get pissed of so much (No more raging MJ
) but it would certainly improve "noobs/lamagrabbers"(there are lots of them) to do od routes or front grabs.I know for easy od routes or front grabs there is not much skill involved and for veterans it still looks noobish but its better than lamaing in my opinion.
If a player who was used to lama all the time gets now killed every time he tries to lama the flag, he should learn from it, if he doesn't well I guess we can say he's stupid. And newbloods who are new to the game should learn rather quickly that there is no way of getting the flag at lower speed. (Maybe this can be explained when you die: "X died, trying to grab the flag at low speed.", just an example I know it sounds shitty^^)
In my opinion this should improve Pubs a lot and due to the fact that Pubs are by far the most played "game-type", if you can say so, there would be a lot of people affected by that change. Of course this shouldn't affect Pugs too much much because speeding up to 60-70 shouldn't be too hard for most of you guys and e-grabbing is not affected by it.
I know devs have a way too long to-do-list. So I just say that this is only a solution for Pubs and it should help "noobs/lamagrabbers" to skill up and prevent annoying lama grabs and shorten the "lama" period of a newblood climbing up the different skill levels from 'learning to sky around' to ' doing 180+ side-routes'. So don't start blaming me because this change wouldn't help established players.
It's just a suggestion but I would like it to be taken under consideration or getting different opinions on it.
And it won't just help veterans not to get pissed of so much (No more raging MJ
If a player who was used to lama all the time gets now killed every time he tries to lama the flag, he should learn from it, if he doesn't well I guess we can say he's stupid. And newbloods who are new to the game should learn rather quickly that there is no way of getting the flag at lower speed. (Maybe this can be explained when you die: "X died, trying to grab the flag at low speed.", just an example I know it sounds shitty^^)
In my opinion this should improve Pubs a lot and due to the fact that Pubs are by far the most played "game-type", if you can say so, there would be a lot of people affected by that change. Of course this shouldn't affect Pugs too much much because speeding up to 60-70 shouldn't be too hard for most of you guys and e-grabbing is not affected by it.
I know devs have a way too long to-do-list. So I just say that this is only a solution for Pubs and it should help "noobs/lamagrabbers" to skill up and prevent annoying lama grabs and shorten the "lama" period of a newblood climbing up the different skill levels from 'learning to sky around' to ' doing 180+ side-routes'. So don't start blaming me because this change wouldn't help established players.
It's just a suggestion but I would like it to be taken under consideration or getting different opinions on it.
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