Hand Grenade Update on Public Test Servers

[Disci]

It's a *dancing* public TEST.

 

[Kryst]

This change will most likely stay the way it is...

The idea behind it was you carry the flag in your left hand, you throw your grenade with your left hand. When you have the flag, you cannot throw the grenade.

The abuse behind being able to combo, super flag toss and do the grenade jump all while holding flag made it too unbalanced.

By no means should you just get a freebee of making a slow(er) grab, and get out instantly almost every time. It doesn't even have to be a llama, have you seen cappers going 200+ with flag and then do a nade jump? Hell, I can't grab the flag over 150 and I was out golden on a sloppy cap route in and out because of it.

 

[phanakapan]

a mandatory speed minimum is a horrible idea. a lot of clutchness in organized play involves egrabbing or grab tossing to teammates. this is necessary and a valid tactic. what isnt valid is making the same egrab and being able to instantly go 160 and one touch home from a standstill because of a nade jump. the idea isnt to make capping from a standstill easy, its to make chasing from a standstill against cappers who are already going faster than you can go with a nadejump when they touch the flag a possibility. llamas should be to prevent caps, not a valid way to make caps.

besides, if you want to llama you can still rocket jump, you just have to avoid splash damage. with the nade jump you could avoid splash and still gain that speed by just hopping up first. this "nerf" is balanced.

 

[SeymourGore]

One other idea that I like, that would still enable cappers to use grenades, was this: The offhand items could be selectable, ie: you need to switch to your hand grenade to throw a hand grenade or switch to your flag to throw the flag.

When a player approaches the flag, he'll automatically pick it up as normal, however, if he was to switch to grenades (or another offhand item) there would be a short delay while the hand grenades are equipped. This would prevent the player from quickly nade jumping away when the flag is first grabbed and allows the player to select his hand grenades so he's not at a disadvantage when enemies attack him.

As for throwing the flag after selecting the offhand item, he would need to reselect the flag then it could be thrown normally. This would cause some tactical choices (do I keep my hand nades to bounce away from the enemy (or fight them more easily), or do I keep the flag in my hand so that I can quickly pass it to a teammate?). As for the graphical effect of whether the enemy is holding the flag (ready to toss) or simply has the flag on his person, this could be done by placing the flag in his hand when its equipped and ready to be thrown or placed on the player's back or belt, when its set aside.

Hey, this would also free up a keybinding, instead of separate Max Throw/Throw Flag/Nade, it could simply be a 'Throw/Max Throw' command.

 

[phanakapan]

i honestly like how it is...i think its balanced.

 

[Homingun]

Since this change is pretty much set, I would like to suggest that the max throw and charge up throw for the flag and nade be combined into a charge up and max throw "item" key to free up key space. 4 keys to use 2 items that can't be used simultaneously is inefficient.

 

[Jack]

I would also to point out that this change opens up the possibility of a whole new skill. now if you want to nade jump with the flag you will have to toss it, wait for the offhand cooldown, then nade jump and catch the flag. would be pretty sick.

Why are you publicizing this?!? (was intending to do this myself)

 

[The7thFlame]

First, Um who said the change is permanent now? I thought this was about a discussion not about forcing a change onto players.

Second, why is this such an issue. Why can't people just play the game.

Nade Boosting does not unbalance anything, it just requires people to adjust to a new style of play. The tag line for nades was - Its a game changer.

Let the game evolve to new levels of speed and tactics, don't force it to stay in its current state to appease people who are unwilling to change thier play style, or learn new tactics.

This game continues to become more and more difficult for newbies to join because it is removing options that allows the noob to effectively make some small difference in his life.

Sure in the hands of a great player it may seem OP, but for what reason?? We have chasers... let them chase... Who said the game was supposed to fundamentally work within a rigid system of thought and action? It wasn't in the book of the falg and I had the old, new, and revised testament of the holy falg.

Just put a 10 second timer before you can use nades again. If you can't kill the guy who lama'd your flag, then your team has problems. This is the fundamental difference between nerfing a game, and actually having defense and tactics.

For all those who want to logically think this out... based on offhand use etc. I say BS - This is a game. Lets imagine that it takes 10 seconds to secure the flag to your armor... then you can use nades once it is secure.

Done.

 

[Redvan]

still wishin people would man up and accept that fact that if someone llamas your flag and then nade jumps away with it, YOU'VE FAILED AS D. The problem isn't inherently in the combo.

 

[Jack]

still wishin people would man up and accept that fact that if someone llamas your flag and then nade jumps away with it, YOU'VE FAILED AS D. The problem isn't inherently in the combo.

No. It is totally the offense and grenade's faults. How dare they grab at 15 m/s with enough hp to nade jump and not get chained instantly??

 

[Karnage]

Nade Boosting does not unbalance anything, it just requires people to adjust to a new style of play. The tag line for nades was - Its a game changer.

Typical offence player thing to say. It IS a game changer because it ENCOURAGES people to llama INSTEAD of doing cap routes. It makes more SENSE to llama. That changes the game.

Van, defence is not omniscient (oops) and we cannot be expected to see every little llama *chocolate cookies* who is skulking behind that pillar or in this tunnel.

 

[Disci]

Give a child a toy and then take it away. *tears*

 

[blu]

One other idea that I like, that would still enable cappers to use grenades, was this: The offhand items could be selectable, ie: you need to switch to your hand grenade to throw a hand grenade or switch to your flag to throw the flag.

When a player approaches the flag, he'll automatically pick it up as normal, however, if he was to switch to grenades (or another offhand item) there would be a short delay while the hand grenades are equipped. This would prevent the player from quickly nade jumping away when the flag is first grabbed and allows the player to select his hand grenades so he's not at a disadvantage when enemies attack him.

As for throwing the flag after selecting the offhand item, he would need to reselect the flag then it could be thrown normally. This would cause some tactical choices (do I keep my hand nades to bounce away from the enemy (or fight them more easily), or do I keep the flag in my hand so that I can quickly pass it to a teammate?). As for the graphical effect of whether the enemy is holding the flag (ready to toss) or simply has the flag on his person, this could be done by placing the flag in his hand when its equipped and ready to be thrown or placed on the player's back or belt, when its set aside.

Hey, this would also free up a keybinding, instead of separate Max Throw/Throw Flag/Nade, it could simply be a 'Throw/Max Throw' command.

I like this idea, it makes a lot of sense. You could use the default "F" key as your Throw Flag/Nade and change the default "Q" key as your Change Offhand Device. Have maybe a 2-3 second delay when changing your offhand device. That would eliminate llama grenade jumps as well as still making it where if your a capper with a flag you can still have access to being able to use grenades for jumps and defending yourself once you have secured the flag. Great idea Seymour!

 

[The7thFlame]

Typical offence player thing to say. It IS a game changer because it ENCOURAGES people to llama INSTEAD of doing cap routes. It makes more SENSE to llama. That changes the game.

Van, defence is not omniscient (oops) and we cannot be expected to see every little llama *chocolate cookies* who is skulking behind that pillar or in this tunnel.

Here is the fundamental problem with how people are thinking about the game, and Carnage demonstrates this mind thought. "Encourages people to llama instead of doing cap routes."

The idea that to play Legions any other way is unheard of not only to him but to other people. People need to learn that there is no supposed to or exact way to play legions. It is a dynamic game where

various strategies and tactics can be applied to win over the other team. If a team is unable to cope with the strategy then they lose - very simple.

ALSO - THE DEFENSE can nade jump just as well as the lama grabber! They can chase just as fine, and chain the entire the way to finish of the health...

The game is already equal in the fact that all people have access to nade jumps and the ability to use them. People need to evolve and let Legions Mature and not force it down a narrow path.

 

[skinnyman]

why not just make it impossible to use the hand nade with the flag if you're below a certain speed. That way llama's won't be able to instantly use hand nade when they take the flag.

 

[The7thFlame]

I like this idea, it makes a lot of sense. You could use the default "F" key as your Throw Flag/Nade and change the default "Q" key as your Change Offhand Device. Have maybe a 2-3 second delay when changing your offhand device. That would eliminate llama grenade jumps as well as still making it where if your a capper with a flag you can still have access to being able to use grenades for jumps and defending yourself once you have secured the flag. Great idea Seymour!

This entire post makes the most sense to keep nades available to people with the flag if just implementing a delay doesn't seem to work for people.

SUGGESTION- DO NOT GO LIVE UNTIL YOU TEST OUT ALL POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS ON OPEN PUBLIC TEST SERVER

1. Test - Introduce 10 second delay before one can use nades once the flag is grabbed

2. Test - Introduce two button offhand item switch, with each switch causing 2-5 seconds delay before you are able to switch back, or use the item in your hand.

3. Test - No nades for flag carrier (already in progress).

FINAL STEP - Tally up public opinion in poll and implement.

Please use the public test server for what it is for, and not just run these tests on a private server. We all know the elite players are conditioned to play legions in one way so they will be bias. Open up these tests on the PUBLIC Test server.

Lastly - A. Do not just implement a change without testing other avenues first.
B. Compromise is the best course of action to appease all players on both sides, do not be one sided.

why not just make it impossible to use the hand nade with the flag if you're below a certain speed. That way llama's won't be able to instantly use hand nade when they take the flag.

Because if you are back at base by yourself holding the flag, you need to be able to defend yourself against the multiple players coming your way who have no problems using nade/rocket combo and chain to kill you before you can blink.

 

[skinnyman]

Because if you are back at base by yourself holding the flag, you need to be able to defend yourself against the multiple players coming your way who have no problems using nade/rocket combo and chain to kill you before you can blink.

Then won't that be the teams fault for leaving the capper alone...

 

[SeymourGore]

You know, perhaps there could be a better way of implementing the change.

I understand the change, and it's a needed change. Nade/Flag/Llama jump is a silly mechanic and I disagree with those who say it's useful for new players. Because it isn't, new players have so many other things to learn, nade jumping would be fairly low on that list. The people who benefit the most from the Nade/Flag/Llama jump are experienced players, maybe not at the high end game, but still decent enough to know such mechanics.

Now what my main concern is, is in the implementation. What I've been telling myself is that it makes sense because of the 'off-hand' designation. The flag being an offhand item and the hand grenades too, it makes sense that they should cancel each other out and only one or the other can be used. Now I touched on being able to switch between off-hand items in an earlier post, so I won't repeat it here, but here's another angle:

Say if we go ahead with this change, the flag carrier is unable to use other off hand items, well, at this point the only offhand item is the hand grenade. What if at some point we want to introduce new offhand items that would make sense for the capper to be able to use without having to drop the flag (flares or beacons, as mythical examples). Basically, I think it makes sense for the off-hand items to be selected and feel that this would alleviate some of the issues that players are feeling that this new hand grenade mechanic would create. This would also allow future off-hand items to be easier integrated into the game.

Another thing to consider is that Rabbit-ing might become more prevalent with this change. Rabbits are pretty skittish to begin with and to take away one of their tools in combat would probably lead to more 'flight than fight' mentalities. Yar, this would affect PUBs more than PUGs, but the PUB is our newblood lifestream and it's probably a good idea to keep it as enjoyable as possible.

As for the change being set in stone, I like to think nothing's set in stone if there's enough noise about it.

 

[Astrum]

I think that'd be a confusing mechanic. Imagine a new player grabs the flag, unable to throw hand grenades at first, then is able to throw them again? I dunno, I'd find it confusing..

It's a confusing mechanic to have hand grenades but not be able to use them in certain situations. Situational balancing has always been a sign of poor balancing in general. By making a situational balance change all you're doing is masking the actual problem rather than fixing it. If something isn't balanced in a certain situation it's not balanced at all. People have been suggesting that people not be allowed to llama grab since the IA days by either disallowing the flag from being picked up or killing the capper or whatever. These suggestions have always been summarily rejected because they are situational balance changes. This is exactly the same thing.

This is what has always confounded me about Legions. Balancing has always been ad-hoc and counter-intuitive. Now I completely understand that Legions has been in open "beta" - and I use the term lightly - for basically forever and it's hard to balance a moving target, but in true Legions fashion small balancing changes usually become permanent even when it stops making sense or even when it made no sense to begin with.

 

[The7thFlame]

Then won't that be the teams fault for leaving the capper alone...

Team defense and tactics is a different issue vs Flag carrier being able to carry nades.

It's a confusing mechanic to have hand grenades but not be able to use them in certain situations. Situational balancing has always been a sign of poor balancing in general. By making a situational balance change all you're doing is masking the actual problem rather than fixing it. If something isn't balanced in a certain situation it's not balanced at all. People have been suggesting that people not be allowed to llama grab since the IA days by either disallowing the flag from being picked up or killing the capper or whatever. These suggestions have always been summarily rejected because they are situational balance changes. This is exactly the same thing.

This is what has always confounded me about Legions. Balancing has always been ad-hoc and counter-intuitive. Now I completely understand that Legions has been in open "beta" - and I use the term lightly - for basically forever and it's hard to balance a moving target, but in true Legions fashion small balancing changes usually become permanent even when it stops making sense or even when it made no sense to begin with.

Astrum if I read what your saying, you see it as being a problem. Where as some of us feel that there is No problem with the mechanics just people's tactics and defense strategies.

If people are so used to the gameplay mechanics now, what happens if down the road someone buys legions, then adds jet pack dodge boosts, extra energy, energy zapper, Turrets, Plantable force shields etc....

Everyone is going to whine about the changes, but in the end people will just deal with it while developing new and different strategies to play the game.

Adding nades is no different. Games evolve, and the people who choose not to grow with the game or evolve with it, end up being the griefers and complainers about new changes that add depth to games.

Don't take away choices in this case strategy options... Make people come up with new ways to play defense. Don't accept arguements that opt to reduce functionality and game playing options of the game, with the concept to build it according to the views of the elite population.

The elite or good players should be able to adjust to the play style. If cappers have to deal with rocket/nade combos from the defense when grabbing the flag, why can't the defense deal with rocket/nade combo for an exit strategy? Seems like people aren't willing to accept something that equals the playing field.