Boost core ideas...

Discussion in 'Competition' started by Poponfu, Jul 19, 2015.

  1. Poponfu

    Poponfu Lead Developer

    I think >80% of people agree boost core llamas need addressing. The heavy handed suggestion that someone will not be able to grab the flag within X seconds of boosting will probably happen unless a more elegant idea can be thought of.

    Goals:
    Nerf boost llamas.
    Keep boost a good intro core for new players.
    Keep boost good for chasing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2015
  2. nil

    nil Private Tester

    Some options:
    - 5 sec restriction between boost and flag pickup

    - Slowdown player after grab when a lamma boost was made
    (I prefer this because it still allows players to e-grab.)

    - Require some amount of energy use to initiate boost

    - Increase health lost?
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2015
  3. Hi!

    Hi! Contributor

    If you increase health lost in boost I will boycott this game :D
     
  4. Doomsify

    Doomsify Member

    How about boost cores just be made for cappers and chasers (that actually run routes) and if someone keeps using boost core as llama grabss they should be punished or something? Idk just a idea.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2015
  5. JimmyJams

    JimmyJams New Member

    Just to be sure we're all on the same page, do we agree this nerf should only take effect when grabbing the flag when it's on the stand? I think boost grabs in midair/midfield should still be possible. And of course using it to return flags should still be as useful as it is now.

    Not a bad idea. Seems simple enough and simple = better usually.

    Decent idea but this would also be a nerf to chasers. There is a way to accomplish what this does without nerfing chasers though (read below).

    Ideas:
    1. Drain 50%-100% of energy if flag is grabbed within x seconds of boosting. E-grabs will still be possible and it will not nerf chasers at all. I think someone already suggested this in TS earlier so I can't take credit for it but I thought I would explain it a little. This seems to be the most balanced idea so far. If that isn't enough of a nerf it could be a combination of speed/energy drain.
    2. Flag is dropped x seconds after grabbing OR instantly. Could have it act as if the player had thrown the flag so they can attempt to aim where it goes immediately after grabbing. E-grabs still possible. Not really sure how I feel about this idea but I might as well put it out there. Pretty heavy handed nerf though.
    To sum it all up, we should be careful about how it gets changed. Boost E-grabs should probably still be possible but they should not be getting home so easily.
     
  6. 57thEnryu

    57thEnryu Member

    i think draining energy is probably the best solution because it really hurts return routes, however it still allows e-grabs to be viable. make it so it is dependent on how fast you are going upon activation to reflect how much power it needs to give you a boost, less for faster speeds and more for slower speeds, up to say 85% of energy.
     
  7. Application-1

    Application-1 test bester

    There is already a increadibly balanced version of boost core in the game pop. Boost nades.
    Delete boost core and done.

    Actually think about it. Boost core will always be the lame easy way and everyone is good enough to use boost nades.
     
    tree and WildFire like this.
  8. Darklord

    Darklord Private Tester

    Boost nades are not nearly as effective as boost core. If they were, people would be using them and a different core like shield or regen for chasing. Chasing is in the most balanced state it has been in perhaps the history of the game because of boost core. The health/time tradeoff of using boost core (21 health to get you to ~90 m/s from a standstill) is far better than a nade combo or a rocket jump.

    The issue with using combo's to chase is two-fold. The biggest problem is that there is a cooldown on nade throws -- with Boost, you can immediately get to 100, then combo to get to 130-140 half a second later. Nades have a two second delay, during which time you are going much slower and the capper is getting farther away, which is often unrecoverable. Not to mention the health cost of a pair of combos puts you in territory where it takes but a few chain bullets or one patch of uneven terrain to take you out.

    I like the idea of draining a large percent of energy if you grab soon after boosting, but my concern is that it won't actually solve the problem. Think of the terrain after leaving the base on the maps we play -- it is highly conducive to skiing with very little energy used. A back route boost + rj on Frost or Wintermelt takes almost no energy on the return.

    I don't think what we do has to make a ton of sense -- there aren't a lot of new players to worry about, and we play this as a sport more than anything. Arbitrary rules that increase the health of the game aren't a bad thing, immersion is not a factor here.

    My vote is for the moderately heavy handed approach of preventing flag grabs from flags on the stand for 5 seconds after boosting, or to slow them down after the grab is made. If it doesn't play well, we can try something else, and it should be relatively straight forward to implement.
     
    nil and Xzanth like this.
  9. Jordahan

    Jordahan World Leader of The 21st Century

    I think this is the way to go. Keeps boost core effective for cappers & chasers. Only issue would be what if a capper wanted to use boost core at the end of their run. Would it penalize them too? Or would we need to have some sort of <88m/s speed for it to penalize you?
     
  10. Dragonz11111111

    Dragonz11111111 New Member

    You could also only apply the slow if the boost-llama the flag from the stand, this way if you boost on your route, or chase it wouldn't effect you.
     
  11. Fixious

    Fixious Test Lead

    The original suggestion is probably the most straight-forward when considering boost llamas and chasers, though it also kills e-grabs. You could fix this but then it gets really technical and I don't want to make this complicated. Either prevent boosters from grabbing the flag ~3 seconds after boosting, or slow them down after grabbing like nil suggested (I'd probably vote for this). It wouldn't be terribly difficult to do either, since player mass and drag variables already exist.
     
  12. JimmyJams

    JimmyJams New Member

    This is a good point. If it's just a flat "x seconds" it could penalize legit route E-grabs (actually all grabs). Or it will simply force cappers to start using their boost earlier in their route so maybe that's not too bad. It would be realllly lame to whiff a grab because you missed the window by .1 seconds though.

    Dependent on speed is something to consider. You could combine it with the other ideas (can't grab/slow down/drain energy) so that the "x seconds" depends on speed. So if you're going say under 50 (or whatever the obvious llama speed is) when activated then x=3 seconds. If 51-100 m/s, x=2 seconds, 101-150 m/s, x = 1 second and so on. These are just arbitrary numbers for now of course and it could be even simpler but you get the idea. This could get confusing though and I agree with Fixi that it shouldn't be overly complicated but I think it's worth testing.

    Another thing on the energy drain idea, it could be energy drain + no energy regen for x seconds. This would surely slow them down enough to be chased.
     
  13. 57thEnryu

    57thEnryu Member

    Well let's not make this too complicated...

    ADDITION: I don't think making it so you cannot grab the flag is the answer, because again that would kill e-grabs. IMO, the change we make should not be "you cant grab for x seconds", it should be something that detours you from doing it.

    just a thought, is it possible to increase damage taken right after using the core for a small amount of time? so you can boost and grab it (with said energy drainage), but an damage you receive is amplified, so a rocket jump would essentially kill you. would also make e-grabs a little less powerful in that you could kill the lo a little faster (if you are immediately on them), but I don't see that breaking the mechanic.

    idk, i just feel like making it so you cannot grab is fundamentally changing the game, not the core itself. that would be like saying you cannot grab the flag while in od. again, my opinion
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2015
  14. loc

    loc #1 Private Tester

    I don't see how this would "Kill" Egrabs. Are we really saying we need a core to e-grab? The time after boost could be as low as 1 second imo as long as it prevents standing right next to the flag and boosting away with it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2015
    BlackHawk and Jordahan like this.
  15. WildFire

    WildFire Warrior of Linux

    I'd rather remove boost core and balance combos, to the point where going over a certain speed (150+) damages you more to pretty death at certain speeds (200). The numbers can be tweeked to find the best balance for the health of chasers. This would balance capper vs chase because the best routes usually use a boost nade to reposition the angle for a good grab. Also it will separate the good skiers from the bad ones in the sense the best ones know how to maximise the amount of speed you get from a slope.
     
  16. Xtreme

    Xtreme shaska's bff

    since when?

    also this game is broke, stop trying to fix it
     
    WildFire likes this.
  17. Armageddon

    Armageddon Teapot

    Why not just do a radius check using the flag stand as the center?

    Not sure of the radius size but lets say 25m, The stand could check to see if any enemy players have a boost core equip and make it unusable within 25m of the stand. This would still allow players to flag toss/boost mid route, still would be able to boost in prior to the 25m. If the flag is off the stand then the check is canceled allowing boosters to still be able to boost/grab from weird locations off of the stand. I did something similar in a tribes mod where the stand would check for a certain pack on friendly and enemy players and add an effect to either or if they came too close. Shouldn't be hard to code and would solve the problem i think without mucking up the boost core.
     
    Poponfu and yami like this.
  18. Fixious

    Fixious Test Lead

    That currently exists for the Engineer core, actually. Just fire up Elegiac and open the editor. You'll see a trigger around the flag that shows where you can't activate it.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Armageddon

    Armageddon Teapot

    Then there we go, something useful might come out of the engi code after all. :3
     
  20. yami

    yami Private Tester

    I am 110% in favor of this solution. I think this accomplishes everything we want with minimal negative effects. Very well done Arma