Ye Olde Melee/Close Range Thread

[Volt Cruelerz]

If I followed you correctly.... you're saying that a KE weapon, with real physics applied, would be.... strong?

Yes it would, in fact, it would be very much so. When pulsed properly, a single kJ in the form of a laser could kill someone. 80kJ would be overkill, though if you're going to go through the air and possibly hit armor at an oblique angle, you'd want that extra power to make sure you got the kill.

Even so however, you still would have to figure out how you don't die from the instantaneous deceleration.

This is off topic anyways...

 

[Ucantry2run]

Melee, even short ranged weapons would be useless in a high speed game like this. MAYBE for body blocking. That's it. Although, rockets are more than enough for that situation.

 

[57thRomance]

Melee, even short ranged weapons would be useless in a high speed game like this. MAYBE for body blocking. That's it. Although, rockets are more than enough for that situation.

I was going to suggest implementing something similar to Quake Live's "Gauntlet Humiliation Glove", but Ucan's right. Even in a small map, Legions is too vast and too fast-paced of an environment for a melee weapon to be of much use, in contrast to Quake's arena-style gameplay. As for body blocking, the sentinel's overdrive, when done properly, works like a charm. Many of Legions's weapons and abilities have multiple uses that make implementing a melee weapon unnecessary.

 

[ripperthedipper]

Melee, even short ranged weapons would be useless in a high speed game like this. MAYBE for body blocking. That's it. Although, rockets are more than enough for that situation.

Indeed. Damage can be easily given with rockets or grenades or even with CG. No need for close combat weapons

 

[mausgang]

Here's where I can see melee weapons being effective. Suppose there's a HoF that's causing a lot of trouble and you need to get the flag because, well, its capture the flag. (I play CTF on legions, so most of my scenarios come from CTF.) The team, provided this is not a PUB, and teamwork is being used, can send in two people along the same cap route. The first "capper", however, melees the HoF aside and the second one comes through and takes the flag.
Also, there could be different melee weapons for each armor type. For the sentinels, there would be a melee weapon that isn't a KE charged weapon, but have a range of decreasing effect. Basically, the closer you are the the Sentinel's melee weapon, the more damage is taken and the more it slows you down. The slowing effect could be partially mitigated if the target is in OD.

The raider's melee weapon would be KE charged and have a short (.5-1 meter. Keep in mind that legionnaires are 2-3 m tall) and just deliver a destructive blow like a shotgun, but with energy rather than shot. Also, instead of a decreasing effect over range, it would just have the same amount of damage delivered no matter where inside the range the target is.

The outrider would have a KE charged lance that would only deal damage if the point hit, but do less damage than the other two's. However, it would, upon dealing damage, deliver a knockback with the rest of the kinetic energy charged. (This is incredibly fake science, but hey, its a game) This, if used correctly, could be used by a capper to clear the flag of bodyblockers by themselves if they aren't comfortable, or able to make an effective OD (ie: their health is low enough that they could get away, but if they OD, they will learn something about it.)
These are my thoughts about melee weapons thus far.

 

[Disci]

You can get rid of a HoF with fake OD which works a lot better since you don't really need to aim it as long as you don't accidentaly grab the flag.

 

[ripperthedipper]

Here's where I can see melee weapons being effective. Suppose there's a HoF that's causing a lot of trouble and you need to get the flag because, well, its capture the flag. (I play CTF on legions, so most of my scenarios come from CTF.) The team, provided this is not a PUB, and teamwork is being used, can send in two people along the same cap route. The first "capper", however, melees the HoF aside and the second one comes through and takes the flag.
Also, there could be different melee weapons for each armor type. For the sentinels, there would be a melee weapon that isn't a KE charged weapon, but have a range of decreasing effect. Basically, the closer you are the the Sentinel's melee weapon, the more damage is taken and the more it slows you down. The slowing effect could be partially mitigated if the target is in OD.

The raider's melee weapon would be KE charged and have a short (.5-1 meter. Keep in mind that legionnaires are 2-3 m tall) and just deliver a destructive blow like a shotgun, but with energy rather than shot. Also, instead of a decreasing effect over range, it would just have the same amount of damage delivered no matter where inside the range the target is.

The outrider would have a KE charged lance that would only deal damage if the point hit, but do less damage than the other two's. However, it would, upon dealing damage, deliver a knockback with the rest of the kinetic energy charged. (This is incredibly fake science, but hey, its a game) This, if used correctly, could be used by a capper to clear the flag of bodyblockers by themselves if they aren't comfortable, or able to make an effective OD (ie: their health is low enough that they could get away, but if they OD, they will learn something about it.)
These are my thoughts about melee weapons thus far.

Be a little creative and you'll find another and easier sollution (as Disci already said) to your problem. This is just finding an excuse to make the developers want to put melee weapons in the game.

 

[mausgang]

There are other solutions, and I'm just suggesting what could be done. This is a suggestions forum. Not every suggestion is going to go into the game, but if I think the idea could be used, I may as well contribute my thoughts so that if it does get implemented and in a way that I don't like, I don't have my inaction to blame. I could go either way on melee or close range weapons, but if it does happen, I'd like some input. Also, I get told this a lot, so I'll pass this on to you. The idea can be tested. If the devs think it could work, it will get tested and then if its actually a terrible idea, then a lot of blood sweat and tears went down the drain for nothing, but it all goes towards making legions a better game. If they find that melee weapons actually add a lot to the game, then it could be added.

 

[ripperthedipper]

There are other solutions, and I'm just suggesting what could be done. This is a suggestions forum. Not every suggestion is going to go into the game, but if I think the idea could be used, I may as well contribute my thoughts so that if it does get implemented and in a way that I don't like, I don't have my inaction to blame. I could go either way on melee or close range weapons, but if it does happen, I'd like some input. Also, I get told this a lot, so I'll pass this on to you. The idea can be tested. If the devs think it could work, it will get tested and then if its actually a terrible idea, then a lot of blood sweat and tears went down the drain for nothing, but it all goes towards making legions a better game. If they find that melee weapons actually add a lot to the game, then it could be added.

What I was trying to say, is that in your exemple, you don't need melee weapons, even better, there are better solutions than the one you pointed out. So that only gives a reason to not put melee weapons in the game.

 

[Volt Cruelerz]

Right... Melee weapons, while cool, are rather difficult to justify in most situation. Also, KE weapons were just something that popped into my head randomly that could look cool, not saying that they would work practically. If you tried using a melee KE weapon as LO, you'd just cause problems for your capper as you'd be in the way.

 

[Freeman]

IMO, melee weapons would only work against players caught with their pants on the ground (ie. o sniping, snuck up apon)

 

[Volt Cruelerz]

a rocket to the face works just as well...

 

[stefygraff]

Irrelevant? There will always be people like those mentioned by the above poster, maybe melee would help them remember how to ski.

Legions is the game where you fly all the time already. We have Chain Gun, why ruin our simple but yet efficient game with shot-guns from a static game?

 

[Mabeline]

<@Mabel> nothing will work
<@Mabel> nothing
<@Mabel> so stop asking for it
<@Mabel> any close range weapon just makes bodyblocking stupid op
<@Mabel> shotguns suck
<@Mabel> it's been tested before

<@Mabel> you're better off waiting for something that doesn't suck

Since apparently you all missed the message...

Melee weapons are and always will be incredibroken because if they are useful in any context they'd essentially be a guaranteed hit for any mildly competent chaser. Most of the time the main blocking factor in being able to bb somebody is network latency and client/server position mismatches. If a weapon was forgiving enough to be able to overcome these they'd become an (easy) second shot at a bb and would be sobad.

They are not useful in any other serious game situations, and they imbalance a critical part of CTF dynamics (which is what the game is, and always will be, balanced around). This all means that they are probably not on the table, and arguing about complex implementations is not very useful. Having gameplay be intuitive is an important part of a video game. If your idea can't be cleanly explained in 3 lines or less you probably need to streamline it until it can be.

Even after all this talk the only standout implementations are old staples, either a simple raycast weapon (energy blade in T:V) or some sort of charge+area effect+damage weapon (UT impact hammer).

It's dead, Jim.

 

[T[h]E Dis[as]teR]

Why would any Legions player think of this idea every one knows Legions != Melee

 

[w00tyou]

Energy blade was never effective in TV because you would have a damn Heavy mortar the flag stand while you were trying to defend (in Pugs).

 

[Fissurez]

yeah...... what about weapons that can screw up your vision...... an emp grenade?

on a different note, i can see that using a melee weapon to cause damage wont work, but what if you used a close range area attack to disorientate/throw enemies?

My idea of a pressure/OD blast from the armour, throwing players away, could work if it had a radius of about 7-10 meters (with the legionairres at 2-3 meters) as it could be used for disorientating other players while dueling (if they get too close) or moving a HoF for the capper.

sort of the same effect that being OD'd gives you but draining all energy instantly and a bit of health (amount of energy = power of the blast) , maybe being a optional replacement for overdrive.

 

[mausgang]

Overdrive is also a way to increase maneuverability for short periods of time without losing so much forward speed. A blast would be good to have for moving enemies too close to the player, but it shouldn't become a substitute for OD.

 

[Fissurez]

but it shouldn't become a substitute for OD.

remove that part of your post and you will get almost exactly what i was trying to say.
i only meant you can either have OD or the pressure wave to prevent it being overpowered.

 

[mausgang]

Okay, so you're saying that with a customizable loadout, you could choose between overdrive and the blast? That sounds better.